swaging for profit

[crossroads]

I've been doing a lot of reading the last few months on swaging and I'm considering setting up for a side business of swaging bullets. There seems to be a lot of people on this forum who are swaging. Is the Corbin site all hype, or is there really a market out there for custom bullets to warrent spending several K? I'm not looking at this as a primary income just a little extra on the side. Thank you in advance for any info.   Kevin

[Kmrere42]

Hi,

Some time back I picked up a die set to make jacketed bullets from rimfire cases into bullets for my 22 Hornet.  There is much prep work to do that I have not had the time to do much with it. 

If you are wanting to make swagged lead for pistols, then there are more steps than just dropping a chunk of lead into the die and pulling the handle.  Like Hornady lead bullets there would need a knurling tool or a  cannelure tool to put several grooves into the bullet side for lube and crimping.

If you want to make jacketed bullets then you would need a source for raw jackets or machinery to make your own. 


Figure on around $2500 in tools and supplies.  With careful attention to detail, your bullets will equal or even better Sierra match bullets. 

The problem is Time,  and a very strict methodology in your manufacturing process.



Select one bullet that you would like to make and go for it.



Just remember the Tax man and pay your dues. 

Insurance is not optional...!!!...






Paul

[crossroads]

Thank you for your reply Kmrere42,  I have a pretty good understanding of the process of swaging and the steps it takes to make a bullet. My question is weather or not there is really a market to where I can make a proffit. According to the Corbin site there is, but Dave has to sell his product or, well, he won't sell his product. There seems to be quite a few people on this forum who are making bullets for themselves. Unlike reloading your own amo, swaging your own bullets really don't seem like a cost saver. For instance a 230gr jhp in .45 with j4 jackets and lead wire from Corbin @ $3.90 per# it comes out to be about $0.27 ea. I can buy 230 gr jhp for about $0.19 ea. off the shelf. So, is the quality that much better that the extra cost is justified? By the time FFL, labor, equipment, insurance, building, power and all the rest of the overhead costs are figured in, it will be well over $0.27 ea. Thank you again for any and all input.

[talon]

crossroads, money can be made if you are very careful in selecting a bullet that can't be purchased on the mass market and still has some demand. ((An example would be a true .38 S&W lead bullet, not one made for the 38 Spc. or .357.  There's still lots of those pistols around and ammo, let alone brass and bullets, is very hard to find.))  True, it will be difficult in finding this information. Just because a few of your buddies can't find a bullet they want won't give you much of a clue how many of these bullets you can sell to them, or others across the country. And you could loose big if you start making your special bullets, spend money on advertising, and then get lots of initial orders for 20 to 60 of them, and then very few orders after that. And you would be very foolish to start advertising before you have the press(s) and dies as it takes so long to get them after you place your order. I've been swaging several different sizes of bullets for over 14 years and have not seen any great demand for any of them, but I do not advertise. Frankly, my biggest money maker is lead wire. I'm able to sell it @ $2/lb plus USPS flat rate fees. Other swagers buy it, obviously. And, from what I know, if anyone ever starts selling large caliber rifle jackets or 3/4 or full length pistol jackets, they won't be able to keep up with demand, particularly if the price is sane. However, the cost to get into the jacket making business is very, very high. In conclusion, I believe bullet swaging is a very interesting hobby, but you, yourself, will have to shoot a lot to make it pay for itself. I don't know anyone in the field of "home level" bullet swaging that even comes close to making it a real wage earner job.

[Kmrere42]

HI Talon,


Excellent post,  I have only one thing to add.


There is one other aspect that not many realize, and that is that in the area of pistol bullets.  With a good die set, one can take the cheap bulk bullets that can be purchased almost for the cost of the jackets themselves and re-swage them into something else.  A good example would be to take bulk 9mm 125 fmj's and turn them around to make a 38/357 soft or hollow point.

On soft hollow points that would not be good for hunting, swage them again into a soft-point configuration for better penetration.

or, keep the nose profile of the 9mm bullet but set it back into a SWC profile for a clean holes on paper in competition shooting with a 9mm or bump them up to a full .357 dia for bullseye.


There are many different areas that can be explored with a bit of time and money.



If it seems stupid but works right, it isn't stupid.


Paul

[crossroads]

Thank you for taking the time to post some good food for thought. To this point all of my research has been on the "how to". It apears that now I need to focus on the "what to " and come up with somthing special to market. Kevin

[MIBullets]

Check out "Crown Metals" for lead wire. I haven't seen a consistantly lower price than theirs. They are in Wisconsin. Their lead wire isn't pure but only has a 0.5% antimony, so it is basically as soft as pure lead.

Talon is exactly right about the "bullet nitch". You have to offer something that has demand and people can't get very easy. Then you maybe able to get that $1.50 a bullet or whatever Corbin is saying now. The most recent new bullet coming out from small bullet shops are the ultra high ballistically superior match bullets with either a metal pointed tip or machined from solid copper alloy. They are asking at least $1.50 a bullet or more. I don't know how they are selling but might be something to watch for.

[iiranger]

I had the great good fortune to confer with a man, retiring, who had been using the Corbin (Dave) system.

He said what I expected. It is not as easy as Dave says, he is selling, but it is doable. As the cliche' puts it, you get 80% of your business from 20% of your customers. You need the "nut" who won't be happy with anything but your product. Whatever that product. As said, you advertise before you have tools... take forever to fill orders... and you will have a name (MUD) and... Don't. Luck.

[crossroads]

There is a list of custom bullet makers on the Corbin web site, I called a few of them and got mixed answers. 1 guy had enough of dealing with people and only makes them for personal use now. Another guy says he sells everything he makes to a loyal local following. Another guy was testing his bullets with the armed forces, but had since got a contract that took too much time for him to make bullets. While another guy seemed to simply not want anymore competition by saying "you'll go broke" yet he advertised about 8 differrent calibers for which he was set up to swage. I'm thinking about trying the .224 RF set up. It would be a reasonably inexpensive place to start, it seems that everyone out there has a "black gun" now, so there is a high volum of them going down range. Then while sitting at the press for hours at a time, I can try to invent the "better mouse trap" in the form of a hard to find, but popular bullet. Kevin

[Reed1911]

Yes there is a market. I'd look at the hunting bullet market over anything else. The benchrest market is pretty well covered, and you need name recognition to really do well. We use a lot of Hawk bullets with excellent results and they are not cheap, my customers are happy with them. We use a lot of NWCP bullets, again not cheap but great results. I'm not sure what calibers you are looking at, but .44, .45, .475/480 are all under served IMHO. The .22 and .308 market are pretty well flooded, but the 7mm and 6.5 market need some work. The 9.3 market here in the States needs help badly and getting in it now would be a good start since we are seeing more and more 9.3 caliber rifles come into the US and gaining popularity.

[crossroads]

PM sent reed1911

[danrickard]

I've been doing a lot of reading the last few months on swaging and I'm considering setting up for a side business of swaging bullets. There seems to be a lot of people on this forum who are swaging. Is the Corbin site all hype, or is there really a market out there for custom bullets to warrent spending several K? I'm not looking at this as a primary income just a little extra on the side. Thank you in advance for any info.   Kevin

FYI - a FFL is required to sell projectiles that you make.. you also need one to sell loaded munitions.

with this being said, its not illegal to GIVE the bullets away for FREE and only charge for your time and effort.

cheers,
 DAn

[talon]

Charging for time/effort is profit, and business and income taxes must be paid. Too, a type 6 FFL will be required. Giving bullets away avoids these issues. I've read eslewhere where some folks have written that as long as only  a 'little money' is involved, you have no worries. Follow this logic: The IRS will track you through Sibera for 10 cents in owed taxes. The ATF enforces firearms and ammo laws to the maximum. You can also be charges with a crime if found guilty. Then you can forget about shooting sports for the rest of your life, and never be able to pass a background check for a good job. Recommend folks who plan to recover or make any money for selling bullets review the appropriate laws on the subject. It will be worthwhile.

[Rickk]

In order to make a profit, you need to make something unique. Swaging takes more time than casting. In many cases, a swaged bullet starts off as a cast bullet, and then goes from there. The intended customer has to be one with enough $$ to pay premium prices.

For instance, to try to penetrate the .223 market would be tough. Same for the .38 lead SWC market.  Who is going to pay you 50 cents apiece for those?  At a nickle or so apiece, you aren't gunna break even.

There are bullets that can only be made by swaging, and there are people with money that can afford them, and there are bullets that are not so mass produced that you have excess competition. You need to find something to make that meets all of those criteria.

And don't forget the FFL.... or give them away to your friends... one or the other.

[Seth Hawkins]

If I get the appropriate FFL license to make and sell bullets (not loaded ammo - projectiles only), can I make them and sell them from my home?  Or do I need to have a "commercial address" to do this?  A commercial address makes sense if you're dealing with large volumes of powder and primers.  It wouldn't do well for your standing with the neighbors if you were to level their house if yours catches fire.  But swaging lead is pretty safe.  I seem to remember reading about this while trying to figure out the do's and don'ts.


The BATFE documents read like a Chinese road map that's been translated into Russian.

[talon]

Seth, Your it's your local authority, the one that administrates the business code, that can tell you if a business can be conducted out of your home.  These 'laws' vary from county to county, State to State. If you will be using only a manual press, and not melting any lead, there should be no problem, but you have to check. Also, there shouldn't be any problem if your have no ( or only a very few) customers visiting your home. Too, if you have no employs that should make things real easy.  Because you have to touch base with your Sheriff's office, you you can start there with your questions.  I believe the ATF is only concerned with your personal status ( Trustworthy, US Citizen, that sort of thing) and that the local authorities have no problems with you or your business activities. I would definitely check your local laws concerning the smelting of lead unless you are limiting yourself to the use of ready made lead wire/rod.

[Seth Hawkins]

Well... if I gotta use lead wire you know who I'll be gettin' it from.

[iiranger]

Supposedly the Clinton regime put over half the class 3 ffl's out of business by requiring local zoning that permits the business... Real witch hunt. Mr. Cobrin, Dave goes over the law in his book which is online. Prior, he recommended the class 3 FFl. After he has recommended the class VI/6 ($30. / 3 yrs.) manufacturers. As said, cross the Feds (and they care) and you life can be very, very hard for a long, LONG time.