New USH 20ga,, not happy

[Slackdaddy]

Picked up a new USH compact in 20ga.
The shop I bought from cleaned up the trigger to about 4lb
I bobbed the hammer/installed uncle mikes extension.
Mounted a Nikon 2-7 slug scope.
I am getting FTF every 10th round or so (Lightfield and Federal)
I am getting stuck shells about 50% (Lightfield and fed)
The Federal sabots slugs grouped about 4" at 50 yards. (only had a few Lightfields)
Bad day at the range.
 
Funny my Rossi 20ga heavy barreled slug gun performed flawlessly out of the box,
I got the USH, cause I could not get a T-hole stock for the Rossi,, Mistake??
Has anyone gotten 100% reliablity out of their H&R slug gun ?
 
Thanks,
Slack
 
 

[Slackdaddy]

Not dissing H&R over all,, just miffed after leaving the range with more problems then I went there with 
Guess I'll have to pick them apart one by one.
 
Polish chamber - the link in the FAQ is a dead link,, hows this best done (stuck shell)
Extractor tune up - guess just clean the parts and shim the spring? any links to dissassemble it ?
FTF - Think I'll leave this till after I find a shell that groups for me,, this may be involved?
 
One thought,, Bobbing the hammer and the gun shops trigger job, could this lead to FTF problems ??
 
Thanks,
Slack

[Lon371]

The combination or either on of the trigger or hammer bobbing can cause light stirkes. I also think a weak spring can also cause that. As far as the sticking round in the chamber, clean the gun. Clean the chamber of any oily residue, also clean your barrel latch.
 
 Does the gun have play in the barrel to reciever? Pull the forend and check up and down and side to side.
 
 Just curious though, Why would you make any mods to the gun before cleaning and firing?  You said the Rossi was great out of the box. But you chose to rework trigger and hammer before running rounds thru the Handi.
 
Lonny

[Slackdaddy]

1st mod was made by the gunsmith, I knew it had a heavy trigger when I bought it, the gun smith has a 3 month wait,, so I paid for it and said clean the trigger,,
Had to mount the scope before shootinging it,, all H&R's require hammer bob job to get a scope mounted,, thats not in the stratosphere.
So yeah, had to make mods before shooting it,, easy enough to undo,, I have 2 hammers in the drawer.
 
The Rossi was fine out of the box, as in it fired and ejected shells,, the aftermarket for Rossi is Nill (stocks)

[zettler]

My first post...

I too just bought the same USG in a 20 with a plain stock and have yet to set it up.  Hope to learn from everyone's efforts.

[Slackdaddy]

I'll keep the thread updated,,
Does anyone know how the extractor comes out?? can't find it in the FAQ's
 
I beleive that with a stock trigger pull, there is so much force on pulling the trigger, that when the trigger breaks, it slams back, beating (timing wise) the hammer, thus the T-bar is up when the hammer strikes.
So my next step is to either, replace parts to stiffin the trigger, or find a way to keep the t-bar up while the hammer drops.
 
Slack

[cwlongshot]

The combination or either on of the trigger or hammer bobbing can cause light stirkes. I also think a weak spring can also cause that. As far as the sticking round in the chamber, clean the gun. Clean the chamber of any oily residue, also clean your barrel latch.
 
 Does the gun have play in the barrel to reciever? Pull the forend and check up and down and side to side.
 
 Just curious though, Why would you make any mods to the gun before cleaning and firing?  You said the Rossi was great out of the box. But you chose to rework trigger and hammer before running rounds thru the Handi.
 
Lonny

Sorry your having troubles, and I certainly don't mean to load on you, but I completely agree with Lon...
 
MANY of us have done trigger jobs improperly, only to find FTFs a REGULAR occurrence!!  Not to mention its well known the factory has WEAK main springs. MANY of us install a WOLFE spring to correct this. Shortening the hammer in a gun with a weak spring can exacerbate the FTF condition.
Modifying the hammer is something I have done but it is NOT MANDATORY!  I have over twenty with scopes mounted and only one or two "required" hammer modifications.
Concerning the extraction issues, be sure the chamber is clean and dry. Light chamber polishing may help, but more likely the shells are on the hotter side. This is becoming common with manufacturers squeezing all available performance from the 20 bore. They do not shoot well anyway, try different shells. Many have good luck with Buck Hammers.
 
I recommend, you buy and install new fire control parts and a Wolfe spring and go shoot it.
 
CW

[gcrank1]

Never had to bob any of my hammers, just used the right height scope base and rings.
The hammer extension has been known to cause 'issues'.
The T-bar HAS to be up for it to fire.

[quickdtoo]

Does anyone know how the extractor comes out?? can't find it in the FAQ's
 

The ejector(no extractor on shotguns that I've seen yet anyway) is retained by a roll pin thru the underlug, see the pics in the FAQs, do the ejector tune as well as chamber polishing from the FAQs to curb the sticking hulls.

Tim

[gcrank1]

Clean and dry is the 'rule for your chamber, but some of these high intensity loads may have considerable expansion and may contribute to the problem. It might be worthwhile to wipe the shells off before heading out or loading, too.

[Slackdaddy]

Thanks for you thoughts guys,, I intend to work through the problems one by one.
I thought it was an extracor, as the shells that did come out, only did about 1/2" 
I was shooting lightfeild and Federal "sabot" slugs, both in the 1400 FPS range, not that hot of a load.
As for bobbing the hammer, even with my 3/4" cheekweld pad on the T-hole stock, I need low-med rings to have the scope at the right elevation, and this requires bobbing the hammer.
 
The trigger was cleaned up by one of the most respected smiths in MD, not in my garage. But if I bring it back it would be a 3-4 month wait. It all comes down to the trigger is dropping the hammer before it holds the t-bar up,, plain and simple.
With a stock 6# trigger not a problem,, your jerking it back,, with a 3# trigger your squeeeezing off a shot.
I'll look into it, but not sure the H&R trigger was ever designed to be a "rifle" trigger.
I "believe" they designed it this way so it is super safe, as there is no other saftey as there is on the Rosi's.
 
It's a trade off - lengthen the trigger extension so it engages the t-bar at the same time it drops the hammer,, but then have a gun that "may" go off if dropped on the butt of the stock?
 
Slack

[quickdtoo]

The trigger has to be pulled to the rear to make the t-bar stay up, you can drop the hammer manually all you want and it won't touch the firing pin if the t-bar isn't up, so it can't discharge by dropping it on the butt. If you eliminate the t-bar and shorten the tip of the hammer so it hits the f-pin before it stops against the frame, then it could accidentally discharge if the hammer is dropped unintentionally.

Tim

[cwlongshot]

Thanks for you thoughts guys,, I intend to work through the problems one by one.
 I thought it was an extractor, as the shells that did come out, only did about 1/2"

 1) I was shooting Lightfeild and Federal "sabot" slugs, both in the 1400 FPS range, not that hot of a load.
 As for bobbing the hammer, even with my 3/4" cheek weld pad on the T-hole stock, I need low-med rings to have the scope at the right elevation, and this requires bobbing the hammer.
 
 2) The trigger was cleaned up by one of the most respected smiths in MD, not in my garage. But if I bring it back it would be a 3-4 month wait. It all comes down to the trigger is dropping the hammer before it holds the t-bar up,, plain and simple.
 With a stock 6# trigger not a problem,, your jerking it back,, with a 3# trigger your squeeeezing off a shot.
 
3) I'll look into it, but not sure the H&R trigger was ever designed to be a "rifle" trigger.
 I "believe" they designed it this way so it is super safe, as there is no other safety as there is on the Rossi’s.
 
 4) It's a trade off - lengthen the trigger extension so it engages the t-bar at the same time it drops the hammer,, but then have a gun that "may" go off if dropped on the butt of the stock?
 
 Slack

Slack,
 Lots of information here!!  I have numberd your responces and answered as best I know..

1) First off, concerning the shells, Velocity is not a determining factor in the pressure of a cartridge. YOUR gun decides this. The fact that they do not shoot very well is reason enough to try others. If ergonomics in shooting are important to you, you need a higher comb than what’s on a T-hole stock. For most people there is simply too much drop for good scope use. Heck for my face they are lo with open sites! Most of my handis wear Leopold’s in LO rings and a Monte Lam stock with zero scope clearance issues and by and large, no hammer modifications.
　

2 ) Not to cast any dispersions on your smith. But there are so many who will not even touch one. Mostly because its not cost effective as the parts are surface hardened and returns common place. The trigger gets lighter and lighter. You simply cannot treat them like other firearms when doing trigger work. No offence to you, but as soon as someone comes on stating a exact pound trigger the smith gave them its often trouble. Unless he does trigger jobs on handis with regularity his work is suspect.
Trigger control is trigger control its not weight control. A heavy trigger is handles the exact same way a light trigger is. None of them get jerked if you want consistent groups. Having said this, of coarse a lighter trigger does make accurate shooting easier.

3) EXACTLY!!  You can smooth the triggers and sometimes get substantial lightening. Other times very little. But heavy stoning almost always causes problems.

4) Altering any safety system is a bad idea… This is why I first recommended you get new parts and start over. MANY of us have been there. Even tho we have been around long enough to know better. I keep spare parts on hand all the time. I have been doing this for quite a long time…

Good luck,
 CW

[gcrank1]

FWIW, though I have dbl. set triggers on several of my match guns, and love them (so, I know the difference), for a field gun I dont mind a bit of trigger weight as long as it breaks clean. Some of the H&R triggers are pretty bad, others only a bit, and Ive done my 'light stone' and 'burnish' the parts in and the 'gunsmith's super secret anti-sieze compound sear goo' trick enough times to know it works for me. When shooting is the key, not sitting and 'feeling' it out.; if, when shooting live ammo, I do not notice the trigger is a problem, the trigger is not a problem.

[Slackdaddy]

I'll have to say, I have learned more in the last 2 days on this board, I am begining suspect maybe the smith does not have a ton of experiance with the H&R triggers? Is it possible he removed material that made the hammer drop slightly earlier, thus beating the t-bar?
Think I will order a new trigger, extension, hammer and trigger spring, and bring it back to "day 1"
I have no idea what he did to lighten it, I will only clean and polish the parts before putting them back together.
 
From there I will see if the t-bar is getting squeezed out,, if it is,, back to H&R and hunt with the Rossi this season.
 
I'll have to say this,, I was going to do the trigger job myself, but figured I'd let the pro's do it 

[gcrank1]

Many ways to skin a cat.
But, FWIW, you should get the Wolfe Exrta Power spring (why H&R doesnt just use them? probably because they have a gazillion of the others on stock).
I would weld up the top of the T-bar and try it with the rest as is (if I was in a rush and just had to know......).

[Slackdaddy]

Only problem with altering the t-bar, I am told that is the one part I would have to send the gun in to get, they are not aval aftermarket. Not sure what they would say about that.
 
OK, Numrich has 2 t-bars for the pardner single shot  http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=3626
the original is sold out,, what is the "replacement" ??
But they list a differant part for the rest of the single shots,, all "sold out"
 
Hmm

[gcrank1]

And if it fixed it, you'd be a happy dude. If it didnt, you are in the same boat you are now.
Do you have a skilled welder for small parts nearby? Sometimes auto-body guys are decent at this stuff because they work with sheet metal, so their rigs are set up to not burn through.
Measure the height as is and make a drawing of the part. I dont think the angle at the front needs to be as deep as Ive seen some, but it has to be able to slide past the F-pin into high position. Look at how the original works as it goes up.
Have a bead layed right at the top and file it to shape, taller than original. Put a little chamfer at that front edge, not quite as far down the face as it was (you can always file more off to fine tune it). The height needs to be to be as tall as possible, yet not jam up under the hammer relief. The trigger ext. lifts it and holds it as the sear tip slips out of the hammer notch. If it jams under the hammer relief the trigger pull will probably stop and the thing wont trip out.
It needs to rise into position and stay through the impact, then fall free. It is OK if it falls before you actual are conscious of slacking off the trigger, as long as it was there through the cartridge going off.
If you dont feel like messing about like this just get what GunParts, or whoever has one and try it out. That may solve it, if not, weld one of them up.