What makes it Shotgun?

[PHATINJUN]

BB's post on his rifled 410 got me to thinking. What makes it a shotgun? In my state IL we cannot use rifles to hunt deer we are shotgun only unless it's a pistol. The shotgun cannot be larger than 10ga nor smaller than 20ga. I have a Handi rifled 20ga that I have brass cases for that I can load my own slugs with and it uses rifle primers. I guess I'm just trying to get some discussion going on some of the things we are doing with guns these day. I am not wondering so much about right or wrong as I am mostly of the mind of if it's considered legal by your game dept and you want to use it thats fine by me. Just like BB using 444 bbl rechambered to 410. Now when I had my 45/410 I used 444 cases to load slugs but still had the longer jump to the rifling. So are game dept wrong with most of there thinking? We all know they have some pretty stupid stuff on the books and for reasons that make little sense. I may be stretching this a little to post here but if I were to do any of these types of mods it would all be done on H&R frames.Kurt

[45-70.gov]

Joe Sixpack  can go to wall mart an buy a 30-06 and head to the woods
to  discourage or stop this  they make the  ''shot gun only rules '' for  safety sake
i don't agree  but understand


people like  BB that can build a gun like this are few and far between
so  i dought they are too concerned  with some one with  his   knowledge


gun laws  like most laws are a compromise between people that half   don't have a clue
 a compromise is a situation where no one gets what they want

[tacklebury]

I bought a box of Magtech Brass 20 ga. Shells and am purchasing a .62 Cal. Ball mold.  Plannin on doing some pumpkin ball or multi ball style loads using just fiber wads for cushion and cheap over powder wads for the over powder and over load wads.  Little bit of duco cement to hold the top card in place.  Nice thing is they use large pistol primers, which I have a lot of and I can reload it with a dowel rod that has a nail in one end and a little wood block.    I have a large supply of .22 air gun round balls from an earlier .22 muzzle loader experiment and intend to make some buckshot style loads too. 

[Rustyinfla]

   I too recently purchased some Magtec 20 ga brass shells. I'm looking towards some "pumkin ball" loads for mine. I'm thinking of buying some already cast .600 balls to start before I invest in a mould. I'm thinking of patching mine round ball style like you would in a trade gun. After all isn't that what a single shot 20 gauge is? As far as I'm concerned it's a modern trade gun and they're as versatile as can be.

[bikerbeans]

Kurt,
 
I think one needs to research closely the rules in the state or states they plan to hunt so you know exactly what is legal.  A friend of mine did most of the work when he contacted Ohio Div. of Wildlife specifically regarding the 410.  They were kind enough to email us a copy or the ORC (Ohio Revised Code) that says what's what regarding a deer legal shotgun shell.  As to the shotgun, the regulations only speak to the bore size, no smaller than .410 bore and no larger than 10 ga.  The regulations do not specifically outlaw wildcat shotguns (say a .4295 bore - mine, which by the way does barely fits into the spec. for a 410 bore shotgun) and they do not address pressures of the rounds fired other than banning bottleneck and all brass hulls.  I keep a copy of the State's response with me when hunting with my 410 and I am retired so I have the time to devote to the legal system if Joe Game Warden isn't quite up to snuff on the regulations.  
 
 
BB

[PHATINJUN]

That part right there explains more to me BB   "all brass hulls" in Illinois we don't have the all brass hulls rule...But then we can't use a .410 either. That is what had me thinking why couldn't you basically take any straight wall case modify it to use shotgun primer . You could have 444 shotgun 45/70 shotgun   Kurt

[mechanic]

Some of the rules are more PC than anything else.  For instance, on Corp. lands I can only use a shotgun with slugs, or a muzzie.  Either can use saboted bullets.  The shotgun I use is, withing 200 yards as dangerous as anyone's centerfire, perhaps in some cases more so.  Almost all the lands are heavily wooded, and there is no hunting withing 300' of the waterline, so in most cases a centerfire would actually be safer.
 
They are responding to the public perception that a 30-06 will come through an eighth mile of woods and hit their home.  There is no magazine limit when using a shotgun for deer, so I have seen at least one fella' with a drum magazine on a semi auto shotgun.  He is the fella' to watch out for, as he will spray and pray, instead of having to take careful aim as I do with my single.
 
There is no easy answer when you have idiots in the woods, and there are currently no laws to prevent that very thing.
 
Ben

[bikerbeans]

That part right there explains more to me BB   "all brass hulls" in Illinois we don't have the all brass hulls rule...But then we can't use a .410 either. That is what had me thinking why couldn't you basically take any straight wall case modify it to use shotgun primer . You could have 444 shotgun 45/70 shotgun   Kurt

I have been thinking about a 32 ga brass/plastic shotshell in a 50 cal rifled barrel.  I have no idea why or what I would gain from it but I keep looking at different reamer dimensions.  Never know what might happen, maybe a 32ga/50BMG.
 
BB

[Rustyinfla]

   I think the law requiring slugs came about before the slugs reached the level of efficiency we have today. I seem to remember at least one state has recently allow the use of slugs OR straight walled pistol cartridges in a rifle.

[Fred McIntire]

I think many laws are enacted to protect people from themselves. Sad but true.
 
I picked up a copy of the Illinois hunting regulations the other day. My thought was, "You need a phD to understand all these rules !" .
 
In Indiana, I can hunt with a 7mm Remington Magnum if its an Encore pistol with a 15 inch barrel; however, I cannot hunt with a .30-06, .243, .308, etc, etc, etc in a rifle !  I guess one more inch does make a difference ! 
 
Too many politicians with no real world experience making rules and regulations for us. 

[Catshooter45]

The rifled 20 gauge barrel on an SB 2 (rifle) action with Mag-Tec all brass shells opens doors to interesting adventurs.
 
My brother and I have done this.  He is shooting three .646 balls at about 1000 feet.  Groups inch and a quarter, inch and a half at 25 yards.  The bore on his shotgun is .626.  We tried a .626 ball and it fires fine but the inside of the brass is.647 or so and they required a paper wrap around the balls in the shell.
 
The .646 ball is a nice slip fit into the brass and the barrel sizes them down nicely when fired.  Of course it's a heavy rifled barrel with no choke.  Wouldn't want to try these in a thin walled/choked shotgun barrel.
 
I bet with a regular shotgun barrel the single ball would be great.  I'd want to measure the choke though, and size the ball to that.  A .646 ball weigh 392 grains and is nothing to trifle with.
 
He can't stop grinning when shooting it.
 
 
Cat

[Rustyinfla]

  Has he had any results on game yet?

[navyone]

This is the definition of a shotgun from the New York Hunting and Trapping Guide for 2011-2012.

"Shotgun—is a firearm with a barrel length of 18 inches or more that uses shells that are nonmetallic except for the base."

[Catshooter45]

No Rusty, no shots fired at game.  Yet.  At fifty yards he's getting a two inch group.  He really, really wants to go shoot some pigs (here in Florida) but we haven't found a place where you don't have to pay to shoot yet.
 
 
Cat

[PHATINJUN]

" A .646 ball weigh 392 grains and is nothing to trifle with."
 
I got some of the old Dixie slugs 20ga Hard cast@500gr that really thump reloads  haven't messed with them much since the Buckhammers came out though.Kurt

[Catshooter45]

Of course three of them at the same time (almost two ounces) really thump.
 
 
Cat

[PHATINJUN]

Here in IL we can not use anything but a single slug. But I have some of those triball 410's that shoot fairly decent from my 22"bbl. I would think that triball from a 20ga would be much fun for hogs @short range. I would almost think 3 of those Dixies from a 20ga would be overkill if that was possible with a hog   but I would have to shoot it from the hip to keep from tearing my shoulder off   Kurt