Author Topic: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS  (Read 960 times)

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Offline williamlayton

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ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« on: January 14, 2012, 01:23:11 AM »
I have no idea why I bring this up except that I was having an arguement with myownself. You don't argue with yourownself? It is good therapy---I rarely can win an arguement with me.
Now I can see the need for Models--different style guns--different length barrels---all the stufff that makes models different.
In the last 20 years it seems that we are consumed by calibers--calibers that are different but the same. 38's that are 357, 9x23, 9mm. A .40 that is a 10mm short and is reall a .41 which is a .41mag.
Hummm, I said to my ownself, you are complicating the end results with no apparent thought to the end results at all. That plus you can't shoot well enough to do justice to any caliber you have.
Well, I said to myownself, you are correct--what do you suggest. To that myownself replied--I have no answer but don't get the .44 mag because I don't like it.
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Offline WD45

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2012, 03:40:00 AM »
I think most of it is nothing but marketing. Especially when the new one either gives the same or even worse ballistics than what is already there. Some of the ones in name only are to keep newer higher pressure stuff out of old guns that can't take it. The 450 Marlin ( 45-70 )  and the 375 Winchester ( 38-55 ) come to mind. Some of them have slight changes that would keep someone from chambering the new round in an old gun and some do not. The 38-44 was just a hot loaded 38 special and I believe the 38 super was just a hot loaded 38 auto. Some of these I think were good improvements being able to make use modern powders and steel BUT some are nothing but something new to market

Offline Brett

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2012, 04:21:55 AM »
I believe WD45 has hit the nail right on the head.  Some are improved versions of old rounds with new names to keep them out of older guns which could not handle the hotter loads while others are nothing more than a marketing ploy to sell new guns.

You certainly don't believe that the auto makers and consumer electronic folks have some kind of monopoly on the practice of coming up with  "the latest and greatest" do you?   I thought that video and audeo devices had reached their zeneth with DVDs and CDs then they came out with Blu-ray and MP3 formats.  I'm sure that they are already working on their replacements as well.

One of the things I admired about the Swedish automakers is that they kept the same body style for what seemed like decades.  If you took good care of your 12 year old Volvo or Saab no one could tell it from one that just rolled out of the showroom.   

 
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2012, 06:33:26 AM »
I don't think the animals, steel plates, paper sheets or bowling pins have noticed the difference ...
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Offline Ladobe

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2012, 07:09:58 AM »
Some of it is just ego and a false sense of immortality.   Now days everybody seems to want to be the designer and name of a wildcat, many of which are so ridiculous they are beyond laughable.   Widespread on the gun forums these days (including the wildcat forum here), and a lot of crapola has been the results.
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline twoshooter

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2012, 02:17:55 PM »
I have had this argument in other places, somewhat involving rifles, but mostly pistols, and it is certainly true. I am and have been a proponent of 32's or even a smaller caliber in handguns. Most of the time I get the response, "what can a 32 do that a 357 or 44 cant do better"? DUH??? be small!!! Weigh less. Fit in smaller boxes. Be cheaper to load. Make less noise. Not penetrate as much. It is like asking me what a Ford Ranger will do that a Mack tandem dump wont. Like get better gas mileage, parallel park, is allowed in suburban areas, can pass other vehicles etc.
I noticed in your original post, you never mentioned anything below a 9mm, have you ever stopped to think why??? Because there virtually IS NOTHING, all the way down to a 22LR. People think in terms of two things with handguns, the primary being "self defense" I would suppose. All right, the requirements of a self defense handgun is first, reliability, it must fire first time every time, it must be able to hit something the size of a basketball across an average size room, and it must be of a size and weight that a person would be willing to carry it. Finally, it must do enough damage that a person hit will not just be PO'd. The second has to do with sports and recreation. The first is best served for the average person by a 380/9mm/ 38+P application.
So, what else is there?? Target shooting, hunting, plinking.

A 32 S&W propels a  .311 diameter 77gr Lead bullet out of a 4" barrel at 800 fps using 2.5 gr of W231 powder.  That is the accuracy load listed in my good ole Lyman cast handbook. The 32 was in fact so accurate that OLYMPIC matches still use it.

Now lets look at a popular,effective, well known hunting round, the 454 Casull. It propels a 325 grain cast bullet @ 1345 fps using 26.5 gr of IMR 4227. Lets compare them. The 454 is a great killer for Whitetails, hogs, even bears. In your suburban neighborhood it could well penetrate every house on your block. It would not be very welcome at an indoor range. The average owner will get to use it maybe two weeks of the year to hunt deer. A small percentage may hunt a hog, and only a microscopic percentage will ever have the opportunity to shoot at anything else.
 
 At 325 gr a pound of lead will make 21 bullets. At 77 gr a pound will make 91 bullets. A pound of powder will load 264 rounds of 454. It will load 2800 rounds of 32 S&W.

A very accurate 32 will kill squirrels, rabbits, birds, snakes, other pests cleanly. The larger diameter works better with less tissue destruction than a hollowpoint in a 22mag. The range is also not a mile and a half like a 22 mag because of the velocity.  Not only can it be used in indoor ranges, it could probably be downloaded even more and fired in your basement without notice. It basically provides 22mag + performance in a reloadable package, at half the cost or less than a 22mag, and is way quieter.

SO. Ok, lets hear all those arguments about how big and powerful and effective your handguns are. Because we need one that is NOT so powerful, loud, penetrating, deadly, explosive etc etc.

So yes, we do need another caliber, a handgun smaller than a 357/9mm. Can you imagine where we would be if the riflemen said " we dont need anything smaller than a 338 Win Mag, if a 270 will kill it,imagine how dead it will be with a 338", or shotgunners said "nobody but some wimp would shoot something smaller than a 12 ga. hell, they make 3", and even 2 3/4 shells". And when I want to run rabbits, don't tell me to just get a Rottweiler and cut his legs off at the knees and call him a Beagle. ::) 8)                                                                                                                                                                         
1000 years ago Men KNEW the Earth was the center of the Universe.....500 years ago Men KNEW the world was flat....... 15 minutes ago you KNEW man was alone in the universe.... Just IMAGINE what we will know tomorrow !! "K"- from Men in Black.

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2012, 02:23:19 PM »
.22 rimfire, 30-06, 12 gauge, 20 gauge, 357 magnum. 9mm and 45 colt.
with those and the ability to reload, nothing else is needed.
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Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2012, 02:38:20 PM »
First and foremost it is marketing. You gotta convince the consumer the problem is in their hands not in their heads, and they spend plenty doing it.


After that you have the improvement on an existing platform. The whole 450 Marlin thing everyone agrees it's a 45-70 loaded to Marlin pressure out of fear someone would load a Marlin spec round into grand dads Springfield  Trapdoor. This continues throughout the gun industry, common sense improvements to an existing round that end up requiring the round to have a new name to avoid the possibility of liability lawsuits.


The 40S&W, now that one I really don't get. Build a 10mm, decide it's too powerful, so you invent a 10mm ( 40 S&W)that is a bit softer shooting. Then you start loading the 10mm ammo to be softer shooting and the 40S&W to run right at the top of the charts so they are now the same darn thing. ::)
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2012, 04:56:45 PM »
I have had this argument in other places, somewhat involving rifles, but mostly pistols, and it is certainly true. I am and have been a proponent of 32's or even a smaller caliber in handguns....[size=78%]                                                                                                                                                            [/size]


You make a compelling argument, I happen to like the .32 rimmed calibers as well. A .327 fed mag singleshot would be an excellent woods rifle, with a wide selection of ammo to feed it. But I do agree that we've gone crazy generating new calibers over the past decade. And really most of them are barely a few fps or ft lbs. different from each other.


We're blessed to be a nation of the idle rich, and we don't see it in ourselves. I just moved to a place with a BassPro, walked in the first time and about passed out. The Archery section had 100 bows, no 2 alike, and most of them cost more than most of my guns. And there was the crossbow aisle ... and they had a small stand with a couple of stickbows. Then the fishing pole/reels ... really? have fish evolved that much since the Zebco 350 or the cane pole? And then the hunting rifles ... you'd swear white tail have started wearing SAAPI plates. There's fellas buying rifles worth more than my last car, in a caliber that costs $2 a round, looking through $1k optics, to kill a white tail from a tree stand at 80 yds. You know why folks do all that? Because they can ... that's all. Oh, we'll post comparison threads arguing for the superiority of whatever choice we made, in no small part to feel better about the $ we spent.
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Offline twoshooter

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2012, 08:04:37 PM »
I see nothing there to really disagree with. Firearms used to be largely a rural pursuit, largely for food. Like many things, it has morphed largely into a money game, even officially. Here in Missouri the Conservation commission focuses primarily on deer and turkey because that is where the money is. Hunters are paying big bucks for big bucks(pun intended)I watch guys on TV who can afford to pay 3-5K for a "deer hunt of a lifetime", and they all use the latest technology, trail cameras, range finders, and as you say 1500$ rifle /scope combos. The real kicker--they "donate " the meat to charity, they would not touch venison with a 10 ft pole. I love Bass Pro, but you are right there also. When you think, these guys buy a 15-20 thousand dollar boat/motor, and a 20 thousand dollar vehicle to pull it with, to catch fish that they release. Forty to fifty thousand worth of toys, and the time to play with them, and that is BLUE COLLAR work, mostly union laborers, and small town doctors or lawyers, small business owners. I can remember times in my life that if I did not shoot it, there was no meat. It is very apparent to me that our "consumer driven" economy is simply what you have described, advertising and communication theory has become so advanced, so effective, that we have all become convinced that we "need" this or that. So no, we do not need two dozen 30 caliber cartridges, but more than one is useful. But, America has not become about what we "need", but about our wants, because marketing can and does control our wants. The reason I replied here was that I see a considerable gap in the product performance, caused by the same philosophy that brings us supersized meals and stock market futures, that more is always better. That is why someone who has disposable income (or ego to believe he does) will buy a 300 Ultra Mag to hunt deer here in Missouri, when a 30/30 will do anything one really needs. It also explains why you can legally use a $1000 dollar network of computer driven trail cameras to keep track of deer in real time, laser range finders, high dollar scientifically designed camo patterns, and bottled doe urine, deer stands etc, but it is illegal to pour out a $10 sack of shelled corn. It is not about need, ethics, fairness, it is all about money. Furthermore, the people who have it have made the ultimate sale, the idea that if you disagree with their philosophy, you are unpatriotic, pathetic, uninformed, in fact Unholy....
However, there is still no reloadable cartridge broadly available for use in handguns smaller than a 9mm. A 32 would be really handy. 
1000 years ago Men KNEW the Earth was the center of the Universe.....500 years ago Men KNEW the world was flat....... 15 minutes ago you KNEW man was alone in the universe.... Just IMAGINE what we will know tomorrow !! "K"- from Men in Black.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2012, 10:47:14 PM »
I left out .22's and the .327 (.32's) on purpose.
Handguns are primarily considered personal defense weapons. Personal defense weapons are for personal defense. I remember that many here are not all that well trained/have the ability/are avid shooters enough to put bullet placement in the right spot under the conditions that handguns are designed for. I am probably one of these--even as hard as I try not to be.
Bigger is better but that comes with limitations also.
My musing has nothing to do with what will kill, maim, stop a fight--really. It is about the proliferation of the same calibers called by a different name.
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Offline BCB

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2012, 02:17:18 AM »
We only need more calibers/cartridges if the manufacture of such "new and improved" "bait" needs more money.  They know that many reloaders/shooters will bite on about anything...
 
As for me--nope we need no more...
 
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Offline BobJ

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2012, 03:36:24 AM »
Amazing thought-provoking thread here! Belted mags, ultra mags, short mags, super short mags. In the end, one accurate shot, and beware the man with one gun...
 
I'm afraid most arguments in favor of one perfectly good caliber over another are mostly marketing department talking points. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes here! Still, good small-caliber handguns are needed. I always wanted a 32 mag single six. Small, light, powerful, reloadable. Love my 22 single six, it just doesn't make a big enough bang!
 
One prob, small calibers are made on the same frame as large bores--a 357 on a 45 Colt frame has thicker barrel walls, cylinder walls, and feels just heavier and clunkier to me. My 1862 Colt Police, designed from the ground up as a five-shot 36, what a sweet thing!
 
One useful new small bore, 5.7 x 28 FN FiveSeven, will be my next gun. Fast, flat-shooting, low recoil, with 30 rd mag you can literally throw up a wall of lead at 100 yd. Anyway, great thread!

Offline williamlayton

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2012, 05:01:50 AM »
Bob
I had one of those for several years--nice and expensive. I get just as much pleasure out of the .327/.32 S/L.
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Offline twoshooter

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2012, 05:12:33 AM »
I have no large argument with part of your premise Mr Layton, but if we concede that handguns are indeed only to be looked at as " personal defense" weapons, then the capacity to wound,kill or maim are indeed the ONLY consideration, the names are simply superfluous. In fact, I submit to you that  all the rounds fired in the United States last year by civilians in legitimate self defense could fit into a carry on luggage bag, maybe even an ammo can. You are correct that most people are broadly incompetent to use firearms in self defense, therefore, the incompetent use of one firearm is unlikely to be overcome by substituting an alternate weapon. (The only exception there may be "the Judge") In fact, most people would not have the wherewithal to actually reach their firearm and use it , let alone use it efficiently. Even in police shootings, with people supposedly trained in firearms use, this is largely true. Despite Mr Ayoob's advice, only people like the fictional Jason Bourne that live in a world so dangerous that they actually have skills and abilities that are maintained and honed by daily need would weapon capabilities make a difference. The current civilian armament race is simply a romantic fantasy that is driven by good advertising. The fact that crime is falling is largely testament to the fact that all criminals are not total idiots and can conduct rudimentary cost benefit analysis. Regardless of skill levels, armed victims raise the cost side of the equation, because remember that 98% of criminals are also pretty incompetent. People who can afford a good weapon, the training to use it, and the capability to maintain practice with both time and money , have incredibly small chance of ever needing one, because they do not live or work in dangerous areas and situations. The illusions that they might are mostly manufactured by advertising firms. Alien abduction insurance comes to mind. People in really dangerous situations are mostly poor, desperate, and in places they cannot afford to get away from, not reading reviews in consumer products magazines.

 The fact is, that in almost any case, the cheapest 20 ga pump shotgun is far superior as a defense weapon to any handgun. The mythology of extended fire fights that lead to the proliferation of high capacity mags is just that, a myth. If you are in drug traffic and gang related activities, that may be a possibility, if not, the odds that 5 rounds from a pump shotgun is insufficient are infinitesimally small. You are either dead or the whole thing is over.

SO. Where are all of those millions of rounds of handgun ammo fired every year? At cardboard, cans, and occasionally an animal. There is a wide range of handguns out there, and the vast majority will never get closer to any defensive use than an adolescent fantasy (not that that is an illegitimate pursuit  ;) ) I have a handgun  for defensive use. I have several for other purposes. I have used a handgun twice in 60 years for defensive purposes, once in '68, another in '80. Did not have to fire either time. I have hunted with them since the mid 70's,I have killed hundreds of squirrels, rabbits, starlings, armadillos, snakes, frogs, turtles, and about a dozen deer with a handgun. A large number were with a 22LR, BUT, I can tell you from experience that as I said previously that a 32 with low to medium velocity is very efficient, does not damage pelts, is not a long range concern, and does not destroy edible meat. I have a 32/20 contender that from sandbags will put all rounds into a quarter at 50 yards, not that I can always. I can use 85 gr factory HP, or my cast 90 gr at 900 fps. A friend has a 32 H&R that does shoot those 32 S&W Longs with less oomph, but just as accurate. No recoil, little noise. We have been sold on the idea that those bigger bangs are better, in fact necessary, and that handguns are defensive weapons only. Colonel Cooper's comments to the contrary, with all due respect, that is a bunch of crap. There is a place for a smaller, lighter , accurate handgun than a 357, there is just a huge industry/ advertising bias trying to keep you from going to that place. Once you have been there, you know..........

 

Now, the
1000 years ago Men KNEW the Earth was the center of the Universe.....500 years ago Men KNEW the world was flat....... 15 minutes ago you KNEW man was alone in the universe.... Just IMAGINE what we will know tomorrow !! "K"- from Men in Black.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2012, 11:12:29 PM »
Two
I agree that on the surface it seems like a contradiction. Let me explain.
.32's ARE ample enough with placed shots--as are .22's---up real close and personal are not in the equasion.
I like bigger--.45's to be exact---in this thought.
But, having said that--I agree with your commentary.
Still--on the subject---are there not enough calibers?
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Offline Gene R

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2012, 01:54:02 AM »
William, I hve had that same arguement with myself as well. And I think we have more than enough calibers.
 
As far as rifles goes, we have been able to take any big game animal on earth for over 100 years. The newer calibers (in my opinion) does nothing that the 30-06, 45-70, 300 win.mag, 458, ect can not do. There has been a caliber for every hunting situation. For smaller game, the 204 Ruger or 223 wssm, or 243 wssm ect does nothing that you cant do with a old .223, 22-250, 243 ect.
 
Handguns are the same in my opinion. I have no use at all for all the metric calibers, I keep it simple. 22lr, 38/357, (my only odd ball 9mm) 44 special, 44 mag, 45 LC, 45acp, have been doing all that has been asked of them for longer than I've been alive.
 
So to answer the question, I believe we have more than enough calibers, and a few that I already have no use for because there was already a caliber for that intended purpose.
 
Gene

Offline lgm270

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2012, 01:59:54 AM »
There are plenty of calibers.  There are not enough places to shoot them or enough game animals to shoot them at.


Offline coyotejoe

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2012, 06:14:27 AM »
Of course we need more calibers! We obviously need a 7mm auto to split the difference between .25 and .32 calibers. Then we need a .338 caliber revolver between .32 and .35 calibers. Most of all we need a 9.5mm auto between 9mm and .40 caliber. Then we need some .425's between .41 and .44 calibers and some .475's between .45 and .50 caliber.
 What is wrong with you people? I thought you were "gun guys", can't you see the crying need for new calibers? :o
Truth to tell, I don't feel any real NEED for anything more than my .357 mag with handloads or even a selection of .38 & .357 factory loads.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline BAGTIC

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2012, 07:57:14 PM »
I generally agree but...
I have always thought it would be nice to have something about halfway beteen the .357 and the next larger size range ( 10mm). Something in the .375-380 range.  Before we went to inside lubed bullets there were such calibers. It should be able to duplicate .357 ballistics at lower pressures and less noise.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: ARE THERE ENOUGH CALIBERS
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2012, 11:21:22 PM »
I see the individual desire/want/mind set to develop these calibers--just for fun and a hoot. I honestly enjoy reading about them, seeing them, and all that stuff. I just don't have the need to own them or shoot them.
I can get by pretty decently with shooting .22's, ,32's--now here is the quandry wherein I am in contradiction with myownself--9MM's, .38's, .357's, .38 supers, 9x23's--which are just the same calibers, some just smoking hotter than others--.45's, .41's and mags.
Aint that enough fun?
Now--here is the real me if I could win the BIG lotto.
15,000 acres in West, By God Texas. Nice sandy, level, deep, mile long box canyon---good 4 wheeler, plenty of snakes, hogs, armadillo's,& coyotes---what would I own and shoot---what would I not own and shoot.
First purchase would be a starter Mas Duce.
 :o :o :o ::) ::) :P 8) 8) :) :) :) :D :D ;D ;D ;D   ;)
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