Author Topic: Nef for Subsonic loads? (Read 1795 times)

Gdbyrd · « **on:** October 09, 2011, 07:07:57 PM »

I've been looking for something fun to plink with. I did some questionin', and I think trailboss and a fairly heavy projectile at about 800-1100 fps may be in my future. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience downloading the 45-70 in an NEF platform.

Seems most guys have success with unique or red/blue dot and a 4-500grn projectile. They're not practical but they're fun to mess around with and it'd be a good excuse for me to finally get into casting my own stuff.

I own a 45-70. But I may pick up a 357 or similar pistol carbine to attain something along what I'm looking for. Really want something relatively quiet, slow moving, with a large projectile...just for plinking.

Whats your advice?

JMcDonald · « **Reply #1 on:** October 09, 2011, 07:53:46 PM »

I'm not sure how well the heavier-for-caliber bullets will do at those low velocities, but you might want to make sure you don't need closer to a 300gr bullet for stabilty's sake.

I intend to load up some subsonic .308s for plinking once my components all come in! Though, there is a good chance I'd use light-weight lead bullets just to really get the noise and powder-usage down. A 110gr bullet at 1000fps would probably only take like 5 or 6gr of Unique.

Dinny · « **Reply #2 on:** October 09, 2011, 08:05:00 PM »

I've loaded the 45-70 with both 330gr and 405gr cast bullets using TB powder. The 330s run about 1000fps and are quieter than most other loads. I have good accuracy from that load also, about 1" at 65yds. Recently I even shot it at a 18" gong at 200yds and walked it right into boring regularity.

I have tried several different loads in the 38 Spec, 357 Mag and a few in the 357 Max. All I can say is, "Trail Boss is the way to go!". My new favorite load for the Max is a 240gr bore riding SWC over 4gr of TB. It clocks 750fps and almost the same hole accuracy at 50yds.

It is alot of fun to shoot and I bet it would leave a nice hole right through any small game it encounters at 65yds or less. You just gotta learn it drop though.

My quietest load has to be 2gr of TB under a 158gr lead wadcutter in a 357 Mag case. It barely penetrates a wooden fence post but sounds like a .22lr. IIRC, velocity was in the upper 500s. Accuracy was so-so at 25yds with groups hovering around 2".

Thanks, Dinny

Sourdough · « **Reply #3 on:** October 09, 2011, 09:08:41 PM »

I've seen the results of detionation from using small amounts of powder in large cases. The worst was using Unique, blew the gun up seriously hurting the shooter.

I use Trail Boss to download 30-06, .35 Whelen, 45-70, and 45LC. I posted a page giving loading information for Trail Boss recently. I'll try and find that page. Rog

Here is the site: http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon%20Basic%20Manual.pdf
Go to page 32 for the 45-70 loads.

My surpressed 30-06 with sub-sonic Trail Boss loads is no louder than someone spitting out a seed. It's deadly on Ferel Cats and Dogs in my back yard. If it's in my back yard it's Ferel.

ibgp3 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2011, 01:25:19 AM »

This is extracted from the manual that Sourdough referenced.
VARGET x0.0 gr. 1392 15,600
H4895 x0.0 gr. 1424 14,900
H4198 xx.0 gr. 1251 14,200
Trail Boss xx.0 gr. 971 24,500

I've read that Trail Boss is detonation-proof.
I've read that uncompressed loads of Trail Boss are pressure safe.
This says that low velocity Trail Boss loads are excessive for my 1972 45-70 Shikari.(Trap-Door, under20,000)

...or am I missing something?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2011, 06:14:46 AM »

Hodgdon sets trapdoor pressure at the SAAMI MAP of 28KPSI/KCUP .

Tim

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

cwlongshot · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2011, 06:52:08 AM »

Detonation is a real concern. BUT its generally only a concern with large cases and small amounts of fast burning powder...invision the powder inside the case.. If it falls below the primer flash hole when the case is horizontal, detonation can occur...

CW

Sourdough · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2011, 07:24:23 AM »

Detonation won't happen with Trail Boss. In some cases it will fill the case. That was the reason for it's development. I won't use anything else for sub-sonic loads.

Gdbyrd · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2011, 08:36:59 AM »

I'm surprised the issue you encountered was with unique. That's been the #1 powder I've found for "cat sneeze" loads in the 45-70. Most guys were using around 10 grns of unique over a 400 grn with great subsonic success. Second/third were the DOT powders.

Trailboss was what I was planning on using; they did stress that the cases had to be pointed up before shooting with unique. I just want to shoot and not worry about stuff.

Does anyone have any experience with Clays? That was another safe powder people were recommending.

I wanted to ask you guys though. Do you think the 45-70 would be my best bet? Or should I go with a different caliber? I want to stay rimmed for the purpose of easy ejection. So that leaves me with the 357, 44m, and 30-30 right?

Would something with a shoulder like a 30-30 AI be more efficient and require less powder? Really want to go as "quiet" as possible with as large a slug as I can.

Dinny · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2011, 08:44:15 AM »

I would use the TB and forget about all other powders. That has not been a decision I have regretted. Stick to the 70% rule for TB.

I would use the 45-70 and a ~400gr bullet. Much more than that and you may have issues chambering the loaded round. With different throating, a much heavier bullet could be used.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,208470.0.html

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

Thanks, Dinny

glocker17 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2011, 09:41:27 AM »

I have dont lots of sub-sonic loading for use with suppressors. Dont forget Tite-Group, it outperformed Trail Boss in my 308 and is designed NOT to be position sensitive.

The shorter the barrel you have, the more consistent subs seem to shoot. I think it is due to low pressure/velocity vs barrel friction. If you are using jacketed bullets then moly coating seems to help. Lead is probably the way to go.

Gdbyrd · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2011, 12:38:23 PM »

Leads kinda what I was hoping for. I need to get some info on casting. It's a great excuse to get into that. I've read that for subsonic they oftentimes leave the boolits oversized because the pressure isn't enough int he case to cause a good seal. Was that you found in your shooting?

Steve Gold · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2011, 03:11:55 PM »

My plinking load:

RCBS 245-44 SWC .001" over bore dia loaded backwards and crimped in the grease groove, over 2.5g of Trail boss.

Like a 22 for noise and hits the target with a thwack! and 1" at 30 yds.

Steve

cwlongshot · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2011, 03:25:58 PM »

That is correct, no worries with Trail Boss... the donuts are safe

The stuff is great, its almost good enough to not worry about any charge weight in pistol calibers... ALMOST!!!
As I mentioned... The fast burning pistol powders used in rifle cases are what you need to watch. To be on the safe side....

Quote

envision the powder inside the case.. If it falls below the primer flash hole when the case is horizontal, detonation can occur...

CW

gcrank1 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2011, 03:26:21 PM »

Use the largest dia. cast lead bullet that will 'comfortably' fit into the fully fire-formed case mouth. Soft lead thru Wheel Weights with a dash of tin work fine for me and friends here. I am happily using Trail Boss for my 'go to' powder now (long-time reloader of reduced velo, cast bullet loads). I absolutely love that I no longer have to deal with small amounts of powder in big cases since TB is so bulky. Even a full load of TB extracts/ejects well in my rifles, but for your purposes use the 70% suggested starting loads and see for yourself.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #15 on:** October 10, 2011, 04:01:18 PM »

i would definitly get a 357 mag

as chaep as they are you will save the money in ammo when you resight for load changes
you want your 45 sighted in for plinkers nad need to go hunting.....tomorrow
leave the 45-70 alone to do its job

i use 180 grain WFN with 3 grains bullseye in 38...dead on at 50yds
i use 18o grain WFN with 6 grains bullseye in 357....dead on at 100yds

i tried 125 tc lee...to save lead.......louder and not as accurate
i tried less powder with both slugs
no higher as we all carry j-frames at my house

YOU NEED A NEW RIFLE
watch out....the 45-70 might get jealous

Buckwheat Jack · « **Reply #16 on:** October 10, 2011, 04:11:22 PM »

For years, Ive been using a 150 grain round nose lead bullet over 3.1 grains of Unique for a .38/.357 load that is light, but accurate. Works great in six-gun and lever gun. If I was fortunate enough to have a Handi that caliber, I am sure it would work there, too.
I like my 450 grain lead bullet over 9 to 9.5 grains of Unique for fun load.

Gdbyrd · « **Reply #17 on:** October 10, 2011, 04:42:56 PM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on October 10, 2011, 04:01:18 PM

i would definitly get a 357 mag

as chaep as they are you will save the money in ammo when you resight for load changes
you want your 45 sighted in for plinkers nad need to go hunting.....tomorrow
leave the 45-70 alone to do its job

i use 180 grain WFN with 3 grains bullseye in 38...dead on at 50yds
i use 18o grain WFN with 6 grains bullseye in 357....dead on at 100yds

i tried 125 tc lee...to save lead.......louder and not as accurate
i tried less powder with both slugs
no higher as we all carry j-frames at my house

YOU NEED A NEW RIFLE
watch out....the 45-70 might get jealous

I hope no one takes offense, but I can't ever see myself using the 45-70 for hunting. I own three of them. The NEF, a Siamese converted mauser, and an encore barrel. They're a blast to shoot. The trajectory is what's always stopped me from using them. My shots on deer here have never been under 150 yards. The last deer I shot was a little shy of 400 yards :*( I can shoot doe a lot closer, but in that event, I'd use a 243, or 22-250. When I want to use a large lead caliber, I use my 460. It'd be a great excuse to use on the wife to get another gun in the safe though

I enjoy the fun factor of it. It's a very historic caliber. There's nothing quite like it and I can respect it for what it's capable of. But for me, hunting's not a part of it.

This is a way for me to get more use out of my guns. I wouldn't have any problem at all dedicating it to being a full time subsonic gun. It'd probably become one of my most used guns then!

I'm worried it may get expensive then though, lol. That's why I'm asking about other calibers. Loading up a 357 vs a 45/70, that little keg of TB's going to go a whole lot further.

Thank you guys so much for all your responses. This part of the forum is so much more active!

gcrank1 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 10, 2011, 04:55:46 PM »

I did the cost analysis on TB vs my old standards, and it wins.
I can get 18-20 gr. TB in as a full load behind my 405 or 340gr. 45-70 cast bullets and you do the calc for 70-80% for light load 'funnin'. Its just plain cheap compared to 65gr. Black Powder (about all a modern case will hold), and a clean bore too.
I agree about the 38/357 loads too, and maybe someday one will come my way, but the old warhorse is FUN and so is the .45Colt. Too many old westerns in my childhood, I guess.......
And fun is what most of this hobby is about.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #19 on:** October 11, 2011, 02:40:13 AM »

Another good powder for the cavernous cases like the 45-70 is AA5744.

CW

Catshooter45 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 11, 2011, 07:35:46 AM »

Gdbyrd,

If you're looking to get into casting, go here:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php There is more correct data for casting and shooting cast bullets than everything else written for the last 200 years on the subjects.

The 357 is probably a good choise for your purposes. If you like 'em larger then you might look at a 45 Colt NEF barrel.

You hear alot about detenation on the net, but from what I have read the boys in the ballistic labs can't seem to make it happen. Unless they double or triple charge the case, then it'll happen. I understand the 'rather be safe than sorry' thing but too many people been ultra light charging big brass with pistol powder with no problems for tooooooooooo long for it to be unsafe in my tiny little mind.

There are even old published loads of three grains of both Bullseye and Black powders in the 45-70, I've read of both being used. So there you go. You pays your money and you take the chances you care to take. All life is a risk. I fully respect those who won't use 'em, I just didn't want their's to be the only voice you heard.

Good luck and have fun!

Cat

gcrank1 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 11, 2011, 08:02:36 AM »

Since (at some point) ya gotta buy powder, why not get the new generation stuff that really does fill up the case and is still light by grains weight? (ie, Trail Boss) It will do all that the tiny amounts of fast smokeless does but without the downsides (and I am much more inclined to agree with dbl. charged loads as THE problem, not detonation, but I am open to real proof).
Ive done both types of loads and its clear to me, so rather than buy more 'old stuff' I bought the TB.
Its a 'brave new world'.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #22 on:** October 11, 2011, 04:41:04 PM »

gdbyrd,

Lyman Postel, sized .459", wt as cast 525 grains.
700X
Large Pistol Primers
No Crimp

The most accurate load with this combo, in my 1:20 twist gun, is right at 980 FPS. Anything below 800 FPS and the Postell will tumble and keyhole.

BB

HAMMERHEAD · « **Reply #23 on:** October 11, 2011, 05:23:35 PM »

.357 Handi is a great gun for sub-sonics. I shot mine (older ejector model with click sights) today and was getting great accuracy (1" at 50 yards) with a 147 grain plated wadcutter (DEWC) loaded long (1.440") over 4.0 grains HP38. Another good one is a 140 LFP over 3.5 grains Clays (Clays is great for light loads and lead bullets).
Disappointing results with a swaged 158 over 4.0 Clays, stringing horizontally 3" at 50 yards.

Another good one is the .45 Colt. Again, Trail Boss, Clays, Unique.
---
"Detonation is a real concern. BUT its generally only a concern with large cases and small amounts of fast burning powder...invision the powder inside the case."
---
Detonation was thought to occur with low charges of slow burning powders (2400/H110 etc...in magnum revolvers), not fast. Slow powders should burn progressively, and detonation was thought to occur if the load density was 50% or less and the powder would ignite over a large surface area.

Fast powder basically 'detonates' (ignites/burns very fast) every time, hence, the very light charges.

There has been some discussion that detonation was never substantiated as a real cause for blow ups. It may be a real phenomenon, just not with light charges of fast powder.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #24 on:** October 11, 2011, 06:38:48 PM »

Quote from: HAMMERHEAD on October 11, 2011, 05:23:35 PM

---
Detonation was thought to occur with low charges of slow burning powders (2400/H110 etc...in magnum revolvers), not fast. Slow powders should burn progressively, and detonation was thought to occur if the load density was 50% or less and the powder would ignite over a large surface area.

Fast powder basically 'detonates' (ignites/burns very fast) every time, hence, the very light charges.

This!

gcrank1 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 12, 2011, 04:44:00 AM »

Documentation guys

, documentation?
Unsupported opinion isnt enough anymore. We have way too many 'old shooters' tales goin' round and round. Internal ballistics is a science.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #26 on:** October 14, 2011, 02:54:36 PM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on October 12, 2011, 04:44:00 AM

Documentation guys , documentation?
Unsupported opinion isnt enough anymore. We have way too many 'old shooters' tales goin' round and round. Internal ballistics is a science.

We are not really going to go around and round on people NOT BELIEVING in detonation are we.....

I mean its not my hands and face that will be "modified"! It can flatly be ELIMINATED with safe proper reloading practices... Believe what you want. But know that its a fact, improperly loading some powders EXPLODES firearms. Some are far more forgiving as in the aforementioned Trail Boss, others like Bullseye...not so much.

Oh and if you don't remember my stories, YES, I have seen it! YES I was there ands spoke with the shooter. YES I saw the destroyed firearm and YES he was shooting tiny charges of BULLSEYE powder. NO it did not happen to me. But simply SEEING it happen was enough to know I never want to hear of it happening to anyone... Not to mention destroying the firearm in the process.

If just ONE guy re thinks his loading practices and loads by the book with established loads. It will be worth it!

CW

gcrank1 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 14, 2011, 03:28:48 PM »

I hear you,CW, and believe me, I am not going to venture into the unrealistic, and envelope pushing realms that some have. I am personally thrilled that Trail Boss can achieve the reduced cast bullet velocities that many of us have used small charges of fast burning shotgun powders for previously. That it fills the case and does so with (by all my 'experience 'tells me, sans a pressure gun) lower pressure and does not have the 'edginess' nor danger of double charging is frosting on the cake (or froth on yer mug).I BELIEVE IN THIS so much that the 'fast shotgun powders are not likely to see much use by me anymore. The obvious danger of a missed double charge that I previously lived behind will no longer be an issue, nor will be the possible chamber ringing from using wads to hold small charges to the rear (a practice I surrendered long time back in spite of those many who have 'done it for years with no problems').
As a small 'factory' we reloaders have final quality control, and proper methodology will minimize the 'improper loading issues'. But......we all know each one of us has made mistakes. Some have been caught before a tragedy, others......
How many of us make a habit of actually cleaning the spout on a powder measure? A spider nest up in one can let a small undercharge, or no charge into one case and a load and a half, or more, into the next. Ask me how I know. A top Bullseye load upped by 50 or more % can do what to a gun? I can document this occasion. Safe loading practice of batch loading and looking into the tray of charged cases showed the discrepancy. I know guys who just set and go, or use progressives, and......well, who really wants to admit they blew up their gun, and maybe themself or someone else by a double charge (or misreading/setting a powder scale).
Pick yer poison; smoke 'em if ya got 'em, I know we are both VERY concerned and trying to do this as safe as we can. I eagerly await any real data on the subject.

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #28 on:** October 14, 2011, 04:34:34 PM »

Junior gives a great treatise on reduced hand loads on his Frugal Outdoorsman web site: www.castbullet.com.

The way I understand it, detonation occurs the same way that flour mills explode. The unburned powder gets blown around in the case and the air-powder mixture then blows up with much greater pressure than what would normally happen with a full (over 75%) case and the powder burning normally.

-WH-