Break Action Shotgun as Modern "Brown Bess"?

[flmason]

Hi All,
    Can't get the thought out of head that a 12 or 20 ga. is somewhat the modern equivalent of a Brown Bess.  Smooth bore... lots of options.

Anyone know of a spot that discusses all the possible load variations? Seems like almost anything might be possible.

Kind of wondering if a round ball or even a Minie ball might work? Granted, either might not like my modified choke.

Anyway, kind of new to the possibilities of smoothbores. Would appreciate any insights folks have that seem interesting or versatile. Also any warnings or caveats.

[reliquary]

Hey, flmason: 
 
I've been thinking about you, since your other discussion on the Survival forum.  How are you doing and what's happened with you?  You've been in our prayers at my church.
 
The smoothbore single-barrel shotgun has accounted for a lot of game for uncountable numbers of families, including mine when I was a kid.  Stick with commercial slugs rather than homemade.  Look for discussions on GBO regarding "cut shell" substitutes for slugs...that's pretty interesting and useful.
 
I like the 20-gauge in a single, rather than the 12, due to shoulder problems.
 
 
 
 

[JoseBob]

Yep.  I cut a 20 gauge down to 18 1/2" therefore no choke.  Something like a Black Powder  Canoe Gun or cut back fowler. I load a patched .60 cal round ball over 3 drams of 3f black powder.  Pretty accurate to about 50 yards.  Oh, I put about 7 precut styrofoam wads from egg cartons, under the ball.  The patch just helps secure it in the shell casing.  I have found several of the wads and they are cup shaped after firing.  I have not, but would not be afraid to go after deer with this load.  Don't under estamate the old "Punkin Ball" loads.  They worked for many many years prior to the development of the "new fangled Rifled Slugs"   LOL....   
 
Draw a fine bead on em Son!!!    Bobby

[Swampman]

I think of them as modern Northwest Tradeguns.

[flmason]

Hey, flmason: 
 
I've been thinking about you, since your other discussion on the Survival forum.  How are you doing and what's happened with you?  You've been in our prayers at my church.
 
The smoothbore single-barrel shotgun has accounted for a lot of game for uncountable numbers of families, including mine when I was a kid.  Stick with commercial slugs rather than homemade.  Look for discussions on GBO regarding "cut shell" substitutes for slugs...that's pretty interesting and useful.
 
I like the 20-gauge in a single, rather than the 12, due to shoulder problems.

Well, the clouds haven't cleared yet. Still looking for work that pays enough to keep a roof over my head. While I have a little savings, decided to purchase this gun. But probably a mistake. Perhaps, should've stuck to getting a .22, since cost per round is so much lower. Easier to carry etc. 2000 .22's is light and would last a long long time. Same money in 20 ga... not so good.

Was thinking a Rossi Trifecta (.22/20 ga/.243) and someday down the road a .357 or .44 revolver should be all the gun I'd need for the rest of my life. The Rossi would cover all game, and revolver anything dangerous like other people and bears. And besides, I'm good out to 100 with a .44. First gun I bought when I was old enough was a Super Blackhawk in stainless. So magnum handguns are an old friend. Was thinking eventually a Redhawk. Double action and speedloading being the selling points there. But handgun is out of budget at present.

With the Rossi, kept reading that the .243 barrel is a problem. Only one I could find in 100 miles was a nickel plated one and it was a little out of budget. Since I'm running out of time, haven't wanted to try ordering a gun I can't check over. So sprang for this NEF 20 ga. and impulsively picked up a Nagant, which is nutz for my purposes at present, but am hoping things turnaround last minute. (Write it off to stress. Always liked old military arms.)

If they don't, and the moment comes where I really pack up and move into the car, am considering getting a .22 handgun of some sort, and the 20 ga. will cover for most other purposes. So at present sitting on Nagant + 20 rounds, NEF + box of birdshot and box of slugs.

So having some buyers remorse as perhaps correct path would've been say a 10/22 with scope and the NEF 20 ga. since most handguns NIB are way out of line for me pricewise. The Ruger Single 10 for example, was $500+ in stainless at Cabelas.

Had an interview across the country. Is a long shot, but if it comes through, might make it. But getting over there, relo costs, making it through the first month will be touch and go. Got my fingers crossed.

In any event, thanks for the prayers at your congregation.

If all goes well, won't have to make any use of this hardware, I'll go through a really trying relo, and when I get time, maybe sit down and create some reloading tools for the 20 ga. Been dieing to make a homegrown reloading kit.

I noticed the cut shell posts. Seems interesting. Never thought of that. The possible pressure issues scare me. And losing a perfectly reloadable shell! Argh! (Died in the wool reloader here.)

In any event, picking a guns from what's on the shelf and trying to cover all the bases in a declining financial situation is massively stressful to say the least.  You end up running scenarios over and over and coming to the same conclusions... a reasonably priced "do it all" ain't out there.

[flmason]

Yep.  I cut a 20 gauge down to 18 1/2" therefore no choke.  Something like a Black Powder  Canoe Gun or cut back fowler. I load a patched .60 cal round ball over 3 drams of 3f black powder.  Pretty accurate to about 50 yards.  Oh, I put about 7 precut styrofoam wads from egg cartons, under the ball.  The patch just helps secure it in the shell casing.  I have found several of the wads and they are cup shaped after firing.  I have not, but would not be afraid to go after deer with this load.  Don't under estamate the old "Punkin Ball" loads.  They worked for many many years prior to the development of the "new fangled Rifled Slugs"   LOL....   
 
Draw a fine bead on em Son!!!    Bobby

That's interesting. Especially the home grown wads. So have you tried the same wads with shot charges? Been wondering what is good to make an under shot wad from that's commonly available.

The load versatility of smoothbores is awesome, LOL!

Just a thought, are there any good solutions to putting a rear sight or scope on a smooth bore? Seems a little thin to tap. I suppose one could eventually silver solder anything one wanted on there.  Since I'm a believe in the Churchill method for shot, at least at the moment, sights for use with slugs or balls probably wouldn't get in my way with shot.

RB ammo is fine with me. Worked in a .36 Navy repro I had, have a 58 Remi with target sights here. Never have taken it out to shoot. But do have 1000 caps and 1 lb. of 777, and 200 balls. Bought it last year when it was looking like I was about to go under then, over in Ca. but last minute some work came through.

Seems Cabela's sent me one that has a slight problem.  There's a small "x" scratched into it and 2 of the 6 cylinders, the hammer has to be carefully pulled all the way back under pressure to be 100% certain the hammer catches. Otherwise timed perfect. At the time, didn't feel I had time to get involved in lots of back and forth mailing. A little stoning or the trigger side of the sear probably correct it, if just wearing it in doesn't. But still P.O.'s me. Point of ordering new in box is to get an unmessed example, LOL!

So anyway, fussed with black powder back in the 80's. Quite sure it can work. And by extension round balls. I think I got more enjoyment out of casting the balls and making tools for it that even shooting that ol' Navy Colt.

[flmason]

I think of them as modern Northwest Tradeguns.

Lots of these single barrel break actions in the family, passed down from my grandfather. Currently sitting with my father. I 'spose they'll end up being mine someday.

Seems the old ones had the more tradition sideways break open lever, rather than the modern push button.

Have to admit, despite having a traditional streak, the button seems to allow for much faster repeat shots if you want to keep it on your shoulder while you reload.

Sorry to go off on a tangent... yeah NW Trade Gun...

http://www.thefurtrapper.com/trade_guns.htm

Seems about right. Have wanted a flinter for a while. Hope to try making my own black powder at some point. Definitely your point makes sense since Brown Bess was military and Trade Gun was moreso civilian, as is the NEF's.

I guess in the end I'm probably as much into reloading as shooting, LOL!

[flmason]

Hey All,
    Is there any source of loading data for some of these more esoteric loads like round balls, etc.?

Would kind of like to have some sort of tested resource before I wade into making loads I don't have a full understanding of.

(Cut shells comes to mind especially. The idea of cramming the case down the bore strikes me as problematic, though the results some folks are getting is compelling.)

[JoseBob]

Ya need to pick up a copy of The Dixie Gunworks Catalog.  Besides being an excellant "Christmas Wish Book" LOL  It is jam packed with "Old" reloading tips, tricks, and recipies.  The back of the catalog has a treasure of out of print data.  I use this information and have had no problems.  ymmv. 
 
Draw a fine bead on em Son!  Bobby

[gcrank1]

Ive had a NW gun in 20, a Fusil de Chasse in .20 and a Club Butt Fowler in 20, all smooth. They are now gone but I have kept a 50cal. smooth flinter because it is a true 50 and shoots .490 or .495 RB (the most readily available) just fine.
My Snider .577 cavalry carbine is basically a shortened 24ga. and takes the .590RBs I had for the prev. mentioned 20ga. smoothbores. Any charge of BP that worked in the muzzleloaders will work in a 'case' if it fits. That said, 55 -80ish gr. of BP fit the Snider with that ball, and it is capable. Same would hold true in a 20ga. case. It wont matter if the ball is down in the case either. Put in your BP charge and some kind of over powder wad (even TP), push the ball down on it and smear some soft lube down on it (even Crisco, but it can get runny; stiffen with some beeswax).
When fired the ball will run out the case, down to the forcing cone and out the smoothbore, no worries.

[rio grande]

flmason, you are thinking too hard. You can think a thing like this to death.
Nothing wrong with a used single-shot 20 and a Nagant revolver, total investment approx. $150.
Stick with those, they will serve you well.

Other combos equally OK.
Cap and ball or single-shot black powder handguns....Mosin Nagant rifle 91/30....used .22 rifles under $100.....any and all break open shotguns.....old h and r revolvers....cobray .45 single shot derringers....flare guns...bows, crossbows - used or homemade....carbon steel US made butcher knives for 50 cents to $2 at Goodwill type stores, flea markets and gun shows.

mix or match.... all are useful tools.

 Just like folks in the old days, you can do real good w/ this kind of stuff.

Don't forget the $20 shotgun shell to pistol caliber adapters.

BTW, you can load shotgun shells easy w/ home-made tools.

[FLNT4EVR]

Stay with the factory Rifled slug loads,or get a slug moldin the ga you want.Mold them with dead soft lead. Foster type slugs will expand to fill any size choke,and likewise  compress down to do the same. A rnd ball will be loose in the bore or deformed by going thru a tight choke. You will never get the rnd ball just right. With practice and good reloading practices you should be able to make slugs that have very acceptable accuracy out to 75 yrds or so.

[flmason]

flmason, you are thinking too hard. You can think a thing like this to death.
Nothing wrong with a used single-shot 20 and a Nagant revolver, total investment approx. $150.
Stick with those, they will serve you well.

Other combos equally OK.
Cap and ball or single-shot black powder handguns....Mosin Nagant rifle 91/30....used .22 rifles under $100.....any and all break open shotguns.....old h and r revolvers....cobray .45 single shot derringers....flare guns...bows, crossbows - used or homemade....carbon steel US made butcher knives for 50 cents to $2 at Goodwill type stores, flea markets and gun shows.

mix or match.... all are useful tools.

 Just like folks in the old days, you can do real good w/ this kind of stuff.

Don't forget the $20 shotgun shell to pistol caliber adapters.

BTW, you can load shotgun shells easy w/ home-made tools.

Agreed, I dwell on this stuff. As a kid I poured over books like "The Rifle in America" and "The Modern Gunsmith", those kind of give you this hyper detailed, super precise, handloader's mindset.

But yes, I agree, you can improvise too. Definitely any grocery store has good knives for a few bucks, etc. Have even done a little study of flint knapping and the like. Knowing how to work from 100% scratch has always struck me as a good idea.

Last Nagant Revolvers a dealer had over this way were priced a few hundred, can't recall the exact price, but when I asked what caliber they were, didn't recoginize it, so didn't even as to see one. Are those the ones that seal the cylinder against the barrel?

[flmason]

Stay with the factory Rifled slug loads,or get a slug moldin the ga you want.Mold them with dead soft lead. Foster type slugs will expand to fill any size choke,and likewise  compress down to do the same. A rnd ball will be loose in the bore or deformed by going thru a tight choke. You will never get the rnd ball just right. With practice and good reloading practices you should be able to make slugs that have very acceptable accuracy out to 75 yrds or so.

Works for me. I buy commercially loaded rounds always thinking, these are going to be reloads at some point, LOL!

Sadly, 20 gauge slug molds are almost as much as the gun was, at least that I've seen. Lee doesn't seem to make thier slug mold in anything but 12.

Have to admit though, I'm as happy as a kid at Christmas with this little break top. Sounds silly given how low end it is, but they're just something about the simplicity that I like. Had I found a 12 with the full choke locally, that's about all that I'd have liked more. Do like the pump Pardner too, but will have to wait on that one.