Long distance nitro load for Pedersoli 45-70

[Artemis]

Hello everyone, I am new here and this is my first post.  

I shoot a Pedersoli Sharps Silhouette 45-70 and am yet a beginner. I have only fired a few hundred rounds as yet.

I am presently shooting nitro with 2 brands of powder: 30gr of Hodgdon 4198 with 405 grain cast and 37gr of Reloader 7 with the same lead. Accuracy is good (at medium distance) with both and recoil is not unpleasant. Until now, I have only gone upto 600yds with these loads and at that distance accuracy is falling away marginally.

Yesterday, I ordered a batch of 500 grain bullets for reloading. I would be grateful for any nitro load info for longer distance beyond 600yds with this ammo, as I plan to book some range time at 800 & 1000yds in the next couple of weeks.

Also, could anyone clarify as what is the maximum safe pressure these Pedersoli rifles can be loaded to? All the manuals state 28,000 CUP as max but I remember reading somewhere that they can handle upto 40,000 CUP?!

Thanks and best regards,
Kris

[Larry Gibson]

Artemis

"Yesterday, I ordered a batch of 500 grain bullets for reloading. I would be grateful for any nitro load info for longer distance beyond 600yds with this ammo, as I plan to book some range time at 800 & 1000yds in the next couple of weeks.

Also, could anyone clarify as what is the maximum safe pressure these Pedersoli rifles can be loaded to? All the manuals state 28,000 CUP as max but I remember reading somewhere that they can handle upto 40,000 CUP?"

I use 35 gr 4895 with a 3/4 gr dacron filler under a Rapine 460500 cast of 1-16 alloy or straight WWs.  Velocity is 1350 fps out of my trapdoor.  Lyman listed several more grains of 4895 as being a safe load (28,000 CUPs) for TDs with their 500 gr Schmitzer (spc) bullet.  This is the best accuracy load (1.5 MOA) and it holds quite well at 1000 yds.  Unless the bullets you ordered are gas check bullets I doubt you'll find any accuracy near the 40,000 CUP mark.

Larry Gibson

[EDG]

>>"Although it is unpleasant to shoot maximum pressure loadings, we do
permit the use of ammunition which does not exceed 29000 psi or CUP
in   these BP Ctg. Rifles. We are aware that there is smokeless powder
45-70  cal. commercial ammunition being sold which advertises pressures of   40,000 psi and we advise against use of this type ammunition. "<<

The excerpt above was posted on a Yahoo group site by the moderator and is supposed to be from a letter sent by Pedersoli to those who ask about permissible pressure in their BPCR rifles. I would have posted the entire letter but it is sort of long - about a full type written page. The full text is the most interesting thing I have read on the web in a long time.

I will post the entire text if Greybeard approves or I can email it to those interested. For those who want to question the source I can probably find the post on the Yahoo group and post the URL.

Ed

[Artemis]

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. :grin:

All information is hungrily digested, so keep them coming  :-)

Kris

[Borealis Bob]

Information I got directly from Pedersoli a couple years back seconds what EDG says. Their 45-70 has, strangely enough, the same CUP and PSI rating.

I've tried smokeless in mine but have found that black powder produces much better results.

[Artemis]

I really would like to go along the black powder route, but not for the time being.

Here in the UK, black powder would require another variation on my Firearms certificate(FAC) as black powder is classified as an explosive and needs special measures to store it. Hence, I would need to send my present FAC and refill more forms to get permission to store BP. Applying and the subsequent wait to receive the FAC is a hassle to say the least.

Thus in the meantime, nitro it is and I want to have as much fun and accuracy as is possible.

[EDG]

Artemis,
 Check Greybeard's forum- Black Powder Cartridge Rifles
About half way down is a couple of posts that identify sources of smokeless data for BPCR rifle. If you are looking to match black powder velocities the following US powders might be considered:
 Both of the 4198s, 3031, both 4227s, AA 5744, 4759. Lyman's handbook would be a good starting point for data research. Each of the US powder
companies have data for the 45/70 on their web sites.
If you are looking for higher velocities than BP powders such as 4895 could be considered. Such loads must be carefully researched to make sure they stay within the limitations of you rifle. By researched I mean find at least 3 reliable sources for the load powder and charge weight that you want to use and start out with an appropriately reduced charge.
If you have one of the powder US powders in mind, I can look up the recommendations in my handbooks.
Ed

[Graybeard]

I have found IMR3031 to give excellent results for me with the 500 and up weight bullets in .45-70. Don't have the data at hand right now but you should be able to locate it from the Lyman website I'd think. I cast the same two bullets they sell cast and lubed and they provide a data sheet with them for several different smokeless powders.

GB

[Artemis]

Ed G,

Thanks for the article on the Pedersoli. Interesting read.

I have H4198 and Reloader 7, both I specifically bought for the 45-70. As I am on the subject, is RX7 the same as Reloader 7? I have some of the manuals and they do give a lot of info, but are not substantially clear for a beginner like myself. I want to hear from people who reload and shoot for more indepth info.

I understand that the most powerful or maximum loads are not necessarily the best or accurate loads. However, my quest is to find as much info as possible which I am compiling for future reference.

As a target shooter, my goal is accuracy. I am not interested in the knock down factor  for the time being. My search is for a load that will push that 500gr bullet upto 1000yds, everytime, wind or rain(which is eternal in the UK!!). I have noted all the info that you guys have given me and will start loading different batches of ammo for testing. But, the down side to testing different powders is the finance; as 1lb tub of the cheapest smokeless costs about £25.

Last but not least, what would be the maximum load for the H4198 with a 500gr cast round nose bullet? Lyman 48th has a load for IMR4198 with 31.5, but am not sure what that converts to H4198 grains.

Kris

[EDG]

>>Last but not least, what would be the maximum load for the H4198 with a 500gr cast round nose bullet? Lyman 48th has a load for IMR4198 with 31.5, but am not sure what that converts to H4198 grains. <<<

My Hodgdon Manual number # 21 (1970) lists  a maximum load in a Springfield barrel as follows:
 482 gr gas check  - H4198   31.0 grains    Velocity = 1229 fps.

My observation of using IMR and Hodgdon 4198 is the charge weights are very close to the same. However this assumes you start about 10% low and work up to the max load. I always check for the same combination in at least 2 and preferrably 3 manuals. This prevents you from picking an over load due to a typo from a single source. I know of a manual that had identical loads listed for 4350 and 4320. The loads were correct for 4350 and were an overload with 4320.

I don't know the answer to the RX7 question since I do not use it.

Greybeard's suggestion about the Lyman data is excellent. I got the Lyman data with some .40 cal bullets I bought and the results have been pretty good. I too, recommend 3031 in addition to the 2 powders you already have.
 
 Ed

[Artemis]

Thanks so much for the advice.

Have just ordered a tub of IMR3031. Now that I have 3 different powders, I can experiment and see which works best. Will let you know how these different loads work after I do the actual shooting (weather permitting ofcourse;it's been pouring in buckets lately and the forecast doesn't look too good for the next week or so).

Kris