Author Topic: seeking info on damascus blades  (Read 925 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
seeking info on damascus blades
« on: May 10, 2012, 02:19:11 PM »
I’m finding myself fascinated with some American made damascus blades.   

I have some questions:  Is there any likely difference in edge keeping among the various damascus patterns of  blades?

Does the fineness of the layers or how the layers fall along the edge affect the edge taking, keeping or cutting qualities? 

What is more desirable given identical steel types: many many thin layers in say a fine raindrop or ladder pattern with a 300 + layers or are 150-300 layers in a more "open" equally strong?

Does the pattern effect the “toughness”?  I recall warnings about old damascus barrels that might rust along seams etc......

How does the figure appear with age in a knife that gets regular outdoor use – does the pattern fade? 


How touchy are these blades to rust.  If I get one I don’t plan on just looking at it.

Thanks. 

NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline Karl B. Andersen

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 106
    • Andersen Forge
Re: seeking info on damascus blades
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2012, 02:45:53 PM »
Toughness is going to be determined by the steel alloys used in the Damascus mix and the degree of heat treating knowledge of the maker.

Ideally, the two or three steels used should be of similar carbon %. The display of the pattern created is done so by etching in acid and how the acid reacts to the nickel content of one of the steels.

The "fineness" or layer count will assist in the equalizing of the carbon content through migration, if there is a differing C% in the steels used.
This may effect the cutting edge if there is not a sufficient # of layers and/or time at welding heat to facilitate said migration.

And here's a "rule" I learned long ago about "cutting" ability of steels:
"Geometry cuts - heat treatment and alloy determine how long."
And, "If Jesus Christ sent a bar of steel down from Heaven, it will only be as good as the heat treatment it gets."

Damascus is not one bit better than the alloys used.

Bottom line is that Damascus in and of itself determines little to nothing. It's the maker's ability to understand his alloys and heat treatment practices from the time he makes his first forge weld of the billet until the final tempering after hardening and the resultant geometry of the edge.

There are no cut and dried rules to blade performance.

Know the maker first. Find one that knows what he's doing.

Do not judge today's pattern welded steel to yesteryear's Damascus barrels. There's no comparison possible.
That's like trying to compare a Model T to a Mustang GT.

The pattern is often determined by the length of time etched, and the post-etching processes of the maker to lock in the oxides. Personally, I hot blue my Damascus and it stays that way an incredibly long, long time - just like a gun barrel.

The variables in modern Damascus are as many numbered as there are makers who make it.

Good questions.
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures -
right next to the mashed potatoes.

Offline Silvertp

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (10)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 687
Re: seeking info on damascus blades
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2012, 06:42:21 PM »
Im in the same situation as Dand, a real yearning to get a good piece of damascus but not really knowing where to start.

Thanks Karl for the explanation.  Sounds like the answer is researching the folks working and heating the steel. 

Silvertp

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
Re: seeking info on damascus blades
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2012, 11:00:21 PM »
Karl!  thanks for a very thorough answer!  I wondered why it seemed all the damascus makers had a nickel steel in the mix.


And thanks too for the explanation of old gun barrels vs modern damascus.


I learned a lot.


The bluing idea is intriguing.  In a previous post I was asking about the current crop of coated carbon steel blades on the market (RAT, Cold Steel, etc.).
I was wondering about gun blue.  Then somewhere I saw some blued blades offered. Seems like a good idea to me.


thanks  again.  Hey if you make blades can you share some photos or links?


You have me curious.


Dan
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
Re: seeking info on damascus blades
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2012, 11:31:10 PM »
Karl  are you Andersen Forge?  I did a search and you have an impressive gallery.


I'm dazzled by some of those knives.  Practical blade shapes and stunning damascus. 


Quite a few levels above the stuff I've been looking at!
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline Karl B. Andersen

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 106
    • Andersen Forge
Re: seeking info on damascus blades
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 04:05:27 PM »
Yes, I am Andersen Forge, and that's why I'm reluctant to post anything.
I'd hate for my contribution to be deemed "commercial".
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures -
right next to the mashed potatoes.

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
Re: seeking info on damascus blades
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 05:23:25 PM »
Well I appreciate how respectful you are to the GB site and rules.  Thanks even more for educating me on damascus.


And folks, I was beyond dazzled looking at this man's knives.  Beautiful work not gaudy or weird.


I marked your site, I will go back to look again.
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline Silvertp

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (10)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 687
Re: seeking info on damascus blades
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 08:39:00 AM »
Karl

I really appreciate the information you provided on damascus.  Having skilled and professional members of Graybeard Outdoors, such as yourself, that are willing to share information is priceless (and cool  8) ). 

The knives displayed on your web site are very tasteful.

Silvertp

Offline gcrank1

  • Trade Count: (24)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7644
  • Gender: Male
Re: seeking info on damascus blades
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 10:32:36 AM »
Ive had a few commercial dam. blades, and still have one Case jack and they havent worked any better than some easier to care for blades and the staining and/or rust that took me by surprise does detract from the look  :( . I know, I should have taken better care, but.......the same care with my other non-dam. blades has been OK, or even given them more character. Acids from certain fruits will stain.
So, be extra careful when you get one.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline DeckH

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Gender: Male
Re: seeking info on damascus blades
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2012, 11:46:55 AM »
 :) Unless, of course, you have a blade of stainless damascus.