Author Topic: Reading Patches?  (Read 836 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Propdoc03

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Reading Patches?
« on: January 11, 2004, 10:18:41 AM »
I am migrating over here as I accidently started this off in the pistol section (DOH!)
Anyway, I started off with Pyrodex and was not having any luck at all as far as grouping. The last time at the range, second time total, I meant to grab my spent patches byt forgot until I was half way home. Today I had a very short ammount of time mainly to get a patch reading. I started off wioth 70grns of Goex FFG then 80grns. My teqnique was shoot-run one patch damp with TC-Cleaner flip and run again-one dry patch flip and load. I am using 530ballsX.015 patch lubed with Bore Butter and a Rem. #11 cap. It put two shots with the 70grns aithing 1.5" at 50yards and then a flyer. The eighty grain load did not fair quite as well. I do have some Swiss powder but am saving that for last. Anyway, I my patch was not burned through and I am not sure how much effort is needed to ram the ball down but it is taking some, maybe just right? This might be a wide open question, but does my loading/shooting teqnique sound like I am on the right track, and what does one look for when patch reading?
I do have the Lyman Peep sights on it and am familiar with shooting iron sights  so I am hoping to get around 1.5" at 50 yards, does that sound reasonable? This was only my third outing with this new rifle and with a end loader but I do think I am seing some improvement. For what its worth, I do shoot a Pedersoli BPCR with Soule sights and Swiss powder. Any pointers and help will be greatly appreciated! I am trying to get geared up to shoot in our local matches and am starting to get itchy about doing so.

Thanks PD

Offline crow_feather

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
Reading Patches?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2004, 02:44:26 PM »
Not only is burning through a problem but some weapons that are new have rifling that cut the patch as it is loaded or shot from the barrel.  The cure is to shoot about a hundred or so patched balls through the barrel or otherwise smooth out the rifling.  The way to check this is to check your patch after shooting and see if it has cuts where the patch would come in contact with the barrel.
That could be why you are getting the occasional flyer.  

You don't say what caliber, but I have always preferred fff goex for accuracy.  You also don't say what rifle you have, but a good rifle should be able to make one large hole at 50 yds.

The most accurate load - I've been told  - is the least powder necessary to get the job done.  I haven't tried it myself, but thought I might pass it along.
Best of luck in your endeavor.

C F
IF THE WORLD DISARMED, WE WOULD BE SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE AGGRESSIVE ALIENS THAT LIVE ON THE THIRD MOON OF JUPITOR.

Offline Loozinit

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Reading Patches?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2004, 02:50:55 PM »
My Lyman Gpr is a .50 RB shooter and this is what I learned since bying it new back in 1980:

It ate up any store-bought patches no matter what lube I used.  Accuracy was dismal.  I sent it back to Lyman and they sent it back to me with a 50 yard target showing match quality groups - two groups with the ragged hole thing.  They clamped the rifle to do this, thus showing that the quality was pretty good.  

They advised me to stop using the store-bought .010" - .015" patches and to use heavy-weight .018" thick pillow ticking.  You know, the stuff on old army mattresses.  It's like canvass.

They used Crisco.  I used Lube 109 (no longer available) and have since used WonderLube when the 109 ran out.  Now, MY groups aren't as pretty, I shoot about 2"@50 and about double that @100.  But, I have yet to miss a deer or have to shoot a second time because I keep it short and responsible.  Yeah, plenty of 'em walk but it's a game not survival.

Took about 500-700 rounds to smooth the bore but the ticking helped the accuracy right off the bat.  My advice would be the same as Lyman's: use genuine pillow ticking as tight as you can get it.

Saturate your patches by melting the lube and dipping them before you hit the range.  That way you'll better distribute the lube and things'll go smoother when you don't have to fiddle so much at the bench.

After you short-start the bullet, put a dry cleaning patch over the bore and ram the ball along with the cleaning patch.  It will come out as you withdraw the rod and you will have a reasonably uniform bore before each shot - all in one motion.  At about 7 to 10 shots (or when you start getting flyers) swab with a slightly moistened patch and follow to dry.

As to your volume of charge, well, it seems that 70 or 80 grains should do nicely.  I have nothing to add except that Crow-feather  says to use 3F and I agree.  But, on a .54... I don't know...   3F seems to foul less and burn more completely.  Can't explain it.

Cleaning:  Ya gotta clean thoroughly.  You can do it different ways - bore cleaner on a swab or hot soapy water, but it has to be thorough.  Myself, I used to use the swab but now it's hot soapy water everytime unless I'm in camp and I'm due to head home soon.  Then, I'll soap 'er out when I get there.  Heats up the barrel and opens the molecules so the junk comes out and the oil goes in.  Lemon oil on the wood, good gun oil inside and carnauba wax on the outside.  Incidently, my GPR and Dixie Tennessee Rifle look very authentic because they've been rubbed and shot and handled so much that there's little finish left on them.  But, the bores are lovely...

The sights:  I have to say that I have never been a fan of the huge sights on the GPR.  Must be a foot wide up front and not wide enough in back.  I filed the notch wider and more square but it's hard to draw a fine bead, so to speak.  Maybe, after all these years I'll make a change...

Hope some of this stuff helps.  Keep trying and let us all know.
Loozinit

Offline Propdoc03

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Reading Patches?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2004, 06:15:45 PM »
Thanks guys
The rifle is a .54 slow twist Great Plains rifle. It may be that I need a tighter patch? It does not take a whole lot of effort to load and the spent patches look like they could be used again. My pathces are .015 Ox Yokes that I dipped in melted Bore Butter and I am running Hornady .530 balls. I am a little surprised about the FFF as I thought that was for  .50 and under. I read an article that mentioned how too fine of a granulation caused ringing in a muzzle loader chamber. It did mention that the FFF may provide better results and that the ringing can be avoided by applying a coat of patch lube before charging. I will give the FFF a try, will thr charge stay pretty much the in the same 60-90grain range?  I had picked up some ticking a while back that measures .018 but it may be more like a light or tight woven flannel. I beleive I bought it to use for cleaning patches for my BPCR. Does it have to actually be pillow ticking and how does one cut patches from bulk?
So far I have about 70 rounds through the barrel so hopefully it will start comming into its self? Is there any reason to be concerned about the wooden ram rod rubbing the muzzle when loading and do they make some sort of a rod guide to prevent this?

PD

Offline rollingb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
Reading Patches?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2004, 06:46:52 PM »
Propdoc03,.... 80 grs. of FFFG 'hind a .530 ball otta kill most anythin you shoot,... you might even try 70 grs, to see if it ain't more accurate.
Always use 100% cotton material,.... "pillow tick'n" from WalMart seem's to be the most popular. If you buy some from WallyMart,.... be sure'n wash it a couple'a times to remove all the "sizeing" (starch) from the material.  Most often Walmart carrys 2 thicknesses of "tick'n",.... THICK and THINNER, most generaly the THICK is .018"-.022" which is what I think most folks use (least I do, in all my rifles 'cept one, and thet's 'cause'a the mold I have for thet particular rifle)!! :D
"Modern inline" is an old mountain-man phrase,... fer "butt-ugly club"!!

Offline rollingb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
Reading Patches?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2004, 06:59:35 PM »
P.S...... Cut'n patchs from "bulk tick'n" is easy,... jest count over 'bout 4-lines, snip, and rip,.... then cut the "lengths" so thet you have "square patchs"....or,.... leave in "lengths" and lube 'bout 2" of the "end",... lay it on the muzzle of yore rifle, place a ball on top, and "short start" the ball,... then cut the "excess" off with a knife (my favorite method) and you will have a "perfect size" patch!!
I use "spit" for lube when shoot'n "competition", and "bear's oil, and bee's wax" mix,... for hunt'n!!
Some folks use a "range-rod" with a muzzle-guard while at the range,.... I don't.
"Modern inline" is an old mountain-man phrase,... fer "butt-ugly club"!!

Offline crow_feather

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
Reading Patches?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2004, 07:08:51 PM »
Best to use a metal loading or "range rod" with a brass rod guide. They come in all the fancier traditional rifle stores - Kidding - you can find them in Cabella's and sometimes at Wally World.

I always used 70 grains fff for hunting in my lyman 54's.  50 grains fff for targets out to 50 yds. There has never been a problem for 20 years.

Any rough weave non-synthetic material will work if it is the right thickness.  The best I ever had was Irish Linen - just can't find it any more.  Pillow ticking is tough and is usually around the right thickness.  You must wash the material several times to get the sizing out of it before you use it.  I then tear strips about 3/4" wide as long as the legnth of the material.  Then just use a knife at the range or sissors at home for the right legnth.

I never oil the barrel inside after cleaning, but use crisco or some other type lube.  The rifle dosen't need cleaning between shots as much.  I use a lube made of 10% water soluable machine oil, 89% water and a dash of windex and dish soap for my shooting.  I can shoot all day without cleaning with that formula on my patches and no oil in the barrel.

The wooden ramrod from the rifle is not the greatest when loading for accuracy.  A longer rod that is heavier (metal) and has a better grip when the rod is on the powder/ball is a lot better.  If I have to use my rifle ramrod, I lift the rod about 12" off the ball after it is seated and throw the rod onto the ball/charge until the rod bounces back up.  It really does help.

May all go well at the range.  Oh! If you're at the range and need help, just look for the nearest traditional black powder shooter - they are a friendly and helpful bunch of people.

C F
IF THE WORLD DISARMED, WE WOULD BE SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE AGGRESSIVE ALIENS THAT LIVE ON THE THIRD MOON OF JUPITOR.

Offline Bob/FLA

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 222
patches
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2004, 04:03:14 AM »
For cutting patches, steal your wifes fabric cutting wheel.  Double the patch material and cut to size.  I cut a few hundred at a time and it takes NO TIME!  Make sure to use the rubber mat and not her favorite table top or tell Fido to move over tonight.

I lube with neatsfoot oil.  It stays viscous in any temperature and fully saturates the patches.  I find it is also VERY clean, leaving little soot to clog the bore.  After cleaning with plain room temperature tap water, I dry the bore and run a neatsfoot oil patch through.  It only takes 3 patches and 15 minutes to clean!  

Take it for what it's worth.
Thanks!
Bob

Visit our website at:
www.nativeamericanarchery.com
Or contact us at:
naa@nativeamericanarchery.com

Offline Loozinit

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Reading Patches?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2004, 04:22:46 AM »
Definitely go with a range rod of some sort.  Sooner or later you're gonna break that wood one or pull off the tip when you need it.  Use something with a handle on the end so you can really get a grip on it - or, stand on it to pull the rifle off a stuck ball.   Mine is a sectional 12 gauge rod that I can attach all kinds of goodies to.  Wood ones (these days) are only fit for wall-hangin'

Another thing on patches that backs up the other guys:
I have cut round , square and ribbon patches and they all seem to result in decent performance (within my humble abilities, that is).

Playing with the different variables is what it's all about.  You'll get there sooner than you think.
Loozinit

Offline rollingb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
Reading Patches?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2004, 04:32:28 AM »
I reckun I otta say "why" I don't use a,... "steel-synthetic-or etc." range-rod,.... and, thet's 'cause I've never seen one inna museum!! :D
"Modern inline" is an old mountain-man phrase,... fer "butt-ugly club"!!

Offline crow_feather

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
Reading Patches?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2004, 06:02:10 AM »
Rollingb

Twere so -  about 1700 or around then  -  on the brown besses or sumpin like that.  One of them Mt. Men had to be smart enough to see the qualities of the metal rod.  Maybe - probably - couldabeen - you never know.


However I do know that no one shot with matches on their barrels, so them glowing sights just can't be honest

C F
IF THE WORLD DISARMED, WE WOULD BE SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE AGGRESSIVE ALIENS THAT LIVE ON THE THIRD MOON OF JUPITOR.

Offline rollingb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
Reading Patches?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2004, 07:43:12 AM »
Crow Feather,.... Yore probly right,... and, I bet them iron ramrods would'a worked good for "spit'n meat"!!
(I'll haf'ta check out the museum,... fer "spits"!!) :-D  :-D  :D

Warn't it ol' Jimmy Bridger, what found "petrifryed" synthetic-trees up 'round "Colter's Hell"?????

Check out the "pet projects" thread,.... I gotta good riflegun for'ya!! (it had them fancy sights one night!!) :)
"Modern inline" is an old mountain-man phrase,... fer "butt-ugly club"!!

Offline KING

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 632
Reading Patches?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2004, 01:58:38 PM »
:D You guys crack me up for sure.         As always ya give good advice.  I also use the Neetsfoot oil( pure,not compound) and find guns are a lot easier to clean.  Stay afe ...king
THE ONLY FEMALE THAT I TRUST IS A LABRADOR.......AND SHE DONT SNOORE,AND DONT COMPLAIN ABOUT MY COOKING...THE ONLY GODS THAT EXIST ARE THOSE THAT HAVE ONE IN THE CHAMBER,AND 19 IN THE MAG.......

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1027
Reading Patches?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2004, 05:37:47 AM »
As for reading the patches, it sounds like you're just fine.  If they look like you could use them again you have no problems.

Stick with that 70 grain charge!

Since you're content with 1.5" at 50 yards stick it out.

You're problem is fliers, that's not necessarily a "load development problem".  

Next go out and fire as many shots as you can with that same technique.  

The way to resolve "fliers" is to shoot, and shoot and shoot.  Eventually you may find some teeny-weeny detail that may be related to the fliers.  Like you might notice the ball fit was different when ramming home.  Or you weren't breathing correctly.  Or...

Try getting a good rest.  Sandbags under the forearm AND under the butt end.  I like a sandbag up front and a bag under my trigger hand.

If the fliers persist and you notice it seems to be a certain "percentage" that emerges get a reloader's scale.  Sort the balls by weight.  Then shoot some groups with the various weights.  Incidentally, you may find that the number of balls that are outside the weight window match the percentage of fliers.  But this should be within reason.  If the fliers are making a 1.5" group go to 3" then maybe it's ball inconsistancies.  If the fliers are not even hitting the paper, then it might be something entirely different.
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!