Malcolm Scopes on Civil War Cannon

[Cannon Cocker]

Does anyone have any information on the use of Malcolm scopes on Civil War era cannon.  I've heard about it, but never seen any documented descriptions of specific guns or uses.

[Cannoneer]

Cannon Cocker,

I'm not saying it didn't happen, only that I've never read nor heard anything about that type of scope being used on a cannon barrel.

[KABAR2]

I Believe one of the small union breach loaders may have had a scope .... at least its modern counterpart is using one in some of the photo's or it may be a tube site.....

[guardsgunner]

OR's vol. 11,pg.616 THE PENINSULAR CAMPAIGN, YA. [CHAP. XXIII.  Trimble's report 
 
 admirably adapted for artillery, and from which an incessant fire could be maintained~ against an advancing force over the heads of its own infantry, which was screened from harm by the abrupt declivity of the hill under which they had been posted; so that our men had the day before been exposed for over two hours to the combined fire of shot, shell, grape, and musketry, to which Yankee ingenuity had added a sort of repeating gun, called a telescopic cannon, discharging 60 balls per minute. Several of these were captured. The natural defenses of the position were strengthened by felling timber on the hill-side and in the marshy ground of the rivulet at its foot, to make tjio progress of an attacking force slow and longer held under fire

[Cannoneer]

Well, it seems to me like some of this information is a little sketchy. Cannon Cocker is specifically asking about "Malcolm scopes", not sighting tubes. If you remember, the kind lady that was curator of the USS Cairo Museum provided DD with photos of artillery sighting tubes that were recovered from the wreck, so we know that the Federal Navy had them for ship's guns, but these were not scopes.
According to this site, General Trimble of the CSA was referring to "Ellsworth Guns".
http://home.comcast.net/~leeannhubbard/index.html

Reports of the operations of the Army of Northern Virginia: from ..., Volume 1 By Confederate States of America. Army of Northern Virginia, Robert Edward Lee, p. 310.



Does anyone know if the tube seen on the repro gun in the photo is an actual scope?
I wonder if this group equiped their repro Ellsworth with this type of sight, only because of the brief description ("telescopic cannon") provided by General Trimble?

[Cannon Cocker]

Not to dilute the thread, but it would also be interesting to know which guns if any are known to have had sighting tubes, as this is an advantage over iron sights.  My interest lies in justifying the use of "sighting tubes", or better yet, "scopes" in competitions that allow only guns and sighting systems that have some historical documented use in the Civil War.  Malcolm scopes were used on rifles during this period, and it seems logical that it would have occurred to some to use them on cannon as well.

[guardsgunner]

   I would guess the first thing to do here would be to determine if the question is Malcolm specific or style. Most good gunsmiths of the target gun era (1850-1880) could and did build their own telescopic sights. Many built very nice scopes ranging in power up to about 24. Malcolm got his reputation on making clearer brighter scopes with double conves lens. (by glueing to 2 lens togather). Malcolm started advertising scopes for cannon in late 1856.
   The first "Ellsworth" or Thayer" guns were sent to Kanas in the spring of 1856. Their front sight mount was a clamp on band with a 3/4 " hole having a keyway for the mount and spring of a scope. Tube sights would not need the slide of the spring mount.
   Were the scope's Malcolm; Who knows? Scope's ,?not much doubt.
 
   The photo is. was my gun while it was still on it's rental carriage. It has a Tube sight because the then Artillery officer of the N-SSA (and owner of a original ellsworth tube) would not alow a scope because of competive advantage. It now has a scope of maloclm style.
 
 
 
 
   
   

[Double D]

First it seems rather obvious to me that the there is a difference between a telescopic  cannon shooting 60 rounds a minute and cannon that is aimed with a telescope.

Here is my posts on the sighting tubes found on the U.S.S. Cairo.

Gary I went back thsi morning to take pictures of the Stove for you...it is not on display, sorry.

These pictures were taken in the museum.

Here are the sights for the 42 PDR.

 

Listed among the artifacts found on board the  Cairo were these sighting tubes.  I had to shoo through the plexiglas to get teh end details, my apologies for the poor quality.







Some lock recovered in the wreck.



A 42 PDR shell.

and

DD,
Those are welcome close-up photos of the dispart sight, its protective cover, and the gun locks (I've got them saved for future reference already, Thanks).

Now, as for those wonderful sighting tubes; did you record anything that might have been on the ID cards describing them in any further detail?

Not much detail on the ID card,  But  Elizabeth Hoxie  Joyner's book The U.S. S. Cairo identifies them as  them as Direct Sighting bar.

Catalog number VICKC-1468
"A long hollow brass tube mounted on a long 4 sided wooden base. A brass tab at each end of tube has a screw through it to attachj tube to base. Also a brass strap is mounted over tube at center and screws down on each side. Tube has no markings on it. Wood is black, very hard. Tube is mounted on top. Top is narrow and flat. Side slanted. Three horizontal slots near bottom of base. Wider end has '32/226" cut into the wood. Opposite end has a pin sticking out.  Bottom is slightly concave.  Metal pin near one end. Measuring: Length of base: 26 3/4" (679mm): width of base; 1 5/8" (41.3)mm)-1 15/16" (33.3); length of tube: 22 1/2" (572mm) not excluding tabs.  In complete but fair condition."

Catalog number VICKC-1469
"A long hollow brass tube mounted on a long 4 sided wooden base. A brass tab at each end of tube has a screw through it to attachj tube to base. Also a brass strap is mounted over tube at center and screws down on each side. Tube has two faint rings in brass at one end. Wood is black, very hard. Tube is mounted on top. Top is narrow and flat. Side slanted. Three horizontal slots near bottom of base. Wider end has '32/230" cut into the wood. Opposite end has a pin sticking out.  Bottom is slightly concave.  Metal pin near one end. Measuring: Length of base: 26 13/16" (681mm): width of base; 1 1/2" (38.1)mm)-1 7/8" (47.6); length of tube: 22 1/2" (572mm) not including tabs.  In complete but fair condition."

Coincidentally the tube markings have a similar format to the markings on these trunnion of the 32 PDRs on board.  They are all marked 32/1845...draw you own conclusions.

and

Additional pictures courtesy of  Elizabeth  Joiner, Museum Curator, Vicksburg National Military Park.

[Cannon Cocker]

I guess I shouldn't  have left the original subject description specific to Malcolm scopes, as what I would like to discuss and find information on is any sighting equipment that gives an advantage over iron sights used during the Civil War on cannon, and field cannon in particular.  The Malcolm sight is so well known that the term is used to refer to that type of arrangement when seen.  Kind of like asking for a Kleenex instead of saying "facial tissue".  The subject is limited enough that information on anything other than iron sights is worth exploring.

[Artilleryman]

I use a tube sight on my Ellsworth.  I have been able to hold a 29 inch group with 8 out of 10 shots at 600 yards (the other two were sighters).   I believe that the stadia sight for the Parrott can do just as well if not better.  A disadvantage of the tube sight is its limited field of view that can make it difficult to identify the target you are assigned to.  Another disadvantage is that the black cross hairs disappear on a dark target.

[Cannon Cocker]

Artilleryman,  Does the tube sight have actual wire cross hairs at the end and just an aperture in the front, all in a brass tube.  No optics right?  How long is it?  Did you make it?

[guardsgunner]

   The tube sights were based on nothing more than the fact that telescopes would not be used in competition.  2' long ,3/4 " tube with very fine wire crosshairs and small aperture.
    It is not that the scope or tube sight is not a advantage it is the mounts I copied the originals exactly. The front mount is flat and stationary. The rear has no fine adjustment for elevation or windage. Artillerymans rear sight has a screw adjustable windage base added to the original style elevating staff.
If I get some time tommorow I will dig up some pictures.
 
Merry Christmas
 
Bob
 
 

[guardsgunner]

First it seems rather obvious to me that the there is a difference between a telescopic  cannon shooting 60 rounds a minute and cannon that is aimed with a telescope.   

DD,
  You have to remember that they Trimble had to batteries of guns driven from the feild by the little breech-loaders.13 guns at around 8 a minute would look like a very high rate of fire to guys that have been seeing 3 a minute by a well trained crew.
  The Williams was also touted as being 60 a minute but was more like 20 on a good day.
 
Bob

 
Ok, so I dont know how to use the quote thing. sorry.

[Double D]

First it seems rather obvious to me that the there is a difference between a telescopic  cannon shooting 60 rounds a minute and cannon that is aimed with a telescope.   

DD,
  You have to remember that they Trimble had to batteries of guns driven from the feild by the little breech-loaders.13 guns at around 8 a minute would look like a very high rate of fire to guys that have been seeing 3 a minute by a well trained crew.
  The Williams was also touted as being 60 a minute but was more like 20 on a good day.
 
Bob

 
Ok, so I dont know how to use the quote thing. sorry.

Yes but were the telescopic guns just breech loaders or were they sighted using telescopic sight?


You have to look real close for the closing quote code  and make sure you are typing you new comments after the code.  It can be kind of tricky as a long quote will be below the bottom of the window and you have to hunt for the end.

[Cannon Cocker]

New winter edition of Artilleryman, page 21, Article about Matt Switlik's original Parrot.  "Switlik says when he added the Parrott to his collection he was excited to note four unique tapped holes in the breech ring. Newspaper accounts in February 1862 indicate that Loomis was a camp in Bacon Creek, Ky., and their commanding general. Ormsby M. Mitchel, used one of their guns to test an experimental telescopic artillery pointer."  It goes on to say that Mitchel had a career in astronomy and founded the Cincinnati Observatory, and spent a lot of time in Europe with other astronomers. "Mitchel did not patent the scope sight and so far I do not know what it looked like." says Switlik.  "A recent discovery confirmed who built the sight which Mitchel designed. Switlik is pursuing that person's professional papers and hopes to learn more about the sight."