Author Topic: Does this seem reasonable? (Read 1130 times)

coyotejoe · « **on:** November 19, 2011, 11:18:47 AM »

I'm wanting to load up some low noise sub-sonic plinkers for my 45/70. I have a Lee mold which casts a 250 grain RNFP at .456" and want to try them. Needless to say there is no data for a 250 grain bullet in 45/70 and very little with any bullet under 1100 fps. The 45/70 case is .8" longer than a .45 Colt. I have some Circle Fly fiber wads .460" diameter by 1/2" long which are a very tight fit inside a .45/70 case. So I'm thinking that if I load one of those under the bullet that should reduce the case volume so that .45 Colt rifle data would be fairly close to what I'm running. Does that make sense to anyone? I'd use pistol powders like Trail Boss or Unique in .45 Colt charge levels, press the wad just below the case mouth and let the bullet push it on down in the seating die so there would be no air gap between wad and bullet base.

BBF · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2011, 12:03:05 PM »

I haven't done anything like it so no comment from me out of experience.
Looking at this strictly from a "gut feeling" angle I see no Caution lights flashing.

Results please when you did this.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 19, 2011, 12:09:44 PM »

Don't use a wad with that. You run the big risk of ringing your chamber.
I'ld also caution you away from unique, and suggest that trailboss would be about as good as any powder for your intended use. Just use the the minimum load data from hogdons site for the 300 gr bullet.
Also you may want to bone up on lead mining technique as using a lead bullet under .458 is probably going to lead the snot out of the throat.
This may be one place where paper patching a grease groove bullet makes sense.

hillbill · « **Reply #3 on:** November 19, 2011, 12:17:21 PM »

ive never done it either and i dont think many have. but it sounds like a good idea to me.what would be nice is if you could get a full wadcutter bullet say around 200 to 250 grns that would seat level or close to the case mouth.i dont think ive ever seen one in .456 tho.maybe you could have plug machined out of steel to block off the round nose part of a heavier weight mold and make wadcutter bullets. mite be a pain in the behind tho retreiveing your plug after every bullet drop.

bilmac · « **Reply #4 on:** November 19, 2011, 12:21:03 PM »

I would think that a 460 wad shoved in a 45-70 case would form an airtight seal and compress the air under it, to what effect I have no idea.

Lightest load I have experience with was a load my uncle developed for the trapdoor. He shot 20 gr. of 2400 and a 385gr bullet. He put a full square of T.P. over powder. I've shot a lot of them, but I think I would leave the T.P. out these days. You might look in the old Lyman cast bullet manuals, they showed some very light loads.

bilmac · « **Reply #5 on:** November 19, 2011, 01:17:23 PM »

I went out and got one of my OLD cast bullet handbooks. Cover is gone so I can't tell you what edition.Lightest load I found was bullet #457130 which weighs only 140 grains. 5 gr of unique made it go 900 fps. 457127 weighs 195 gr. 7 gr of unique makes it go 1100 fps.

The book hosts load info from contributors. I looked at a lot of pistol bullet loads and nobody had used them in the 45-70. I believe that pistol diameter bullets will lead up your gun and shoot patterns instead of groups. One possibility is to try round balls. They are supposed to shoot pretty good.

hillbill · « **Reply #6 on:** November 19, 2011, 02:11:16 PM »

you know i was thinking, lee makes a conical mold for the ruger old army in .457 and a round ball mold of the same dia.would that work in a 45/70?

Ranch13 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 19, 2011, 02:30:43 PM »

Yes that should work, especially if you cast them on the cool side, that would make them drop from the mould just a tad larger.

Hit or Miss · « **Reply #8 on:** November 19, 2011, 03:37:42 PM »

Check this out-http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/whisperloads.htm it's a nice article on whisper loads with some data on the .45-70.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #9 on:** November 20, 2011, 05:47:49 AM »

Thanks for the link to "whisper loads", that's interesting but I do want a bit more speed, say around 1000 fps, and I'm not going to buy a new mold just to play around with, I really have to pinch pennies to get by these days.
I have Townsend Whelen's book "The American Rifle" and he shows small game loads for his hunting rifles, he was almost obsessive in developing a small game load for every big game rifle, but that book was published in 1920 and none of the powders he used are even made anymore. LOL
I loaded up a few rounds yesterday using the 250 grain mold I have and a couple of different powders. I don't expect fine accuracy since the H&R rifle I have has never done better than 4-5 moa with any of the many loads I've tried in it. It's just barely adequate as a 100 yard deer rifle with its best load on its best day.
I doubt leading will be a problem, that 1/2" fiber wad should prevent any blowby around the bullet and if I can get 3" groups at 50 yards I'll be happy with it, that's better than I can hold in offhand shooting.
I'll let you know how it works when I get a chance to try it, hopefully in the next few days. Can't post velocities however, since I conked my chronograph with a wild gas check and haven't gotten around to sending it off for repair.

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** November 20, 2011, 05:58:49 AM »

Quite frankly no it does NOT sound reasonable. What it sounds like to me is a gun about to be ruined and perhaps a shooter about to be hurt.

The wad if not tightly against both bullet and powder very well could act as a barrel obstruction. Using load data for a totally different round and with a bullet of wrong diameter to me sounds like something a first time reloader would do.

Proceed at your own risk if you must but finding a new plan is what I recommend.

Using a lead bullet smaller than bore diameter is likely to result in a lot of leading and very poor accuracy. The normal way to get subsonic velocity is with a heavier bullet not with a lighter one.

To me it seems the safer way to proceed if ya just gotta is with a shortened case tho that might require inside reaming of the case if you shorten it to the point where it is thicker and holds the bullet too tightly to release without running up pressures.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 20, 2011, 07:15:22 AM »

Coyotejoe lots a luck, but that fiber wad will not hold the gases back, and you will get some pretty severe leading, and even if you don't turn that barrel into a shiny lead pipe,or ring the chamber, accuracy will likely be nonexistant. I'm almost wondering from the accuracy level you have already with that rifle, if you don't have the barrel full of lead now. You may want to run a flannel patch soaked in puregumspirits of turpentine on a jag thru the barrel followed by dry patch and see how many silver streaks come out on the patches.
Several of the powders that were available when Whelen wrote that article are still available.
If velocity at or below 1000 fps is your goal, simply use trailboss powder, there are very few loads with it that will get a bullet from a 45-70 above 1000fps.

BBF · « **Reply #12 on:** November 20, 2011, 07:22:43 AM »

If you are going to go ahead, how about putting some bullet grease on top of the bullet?

mauser98us · « **Reply #13 on:** November 20, 2011, 07:30:06 AM »

Wads and fillers could be a recepie for disaster. Pressures could skyrocket and all the other mentioned problems could exist. Just use Accurate 5744 and be done with it. This powder was designed exactly for this purpose. Good luck.

srussell · « **Reply #14 on:** November 20, 2011, 08:56:23 AM »

if you want to do that with a 250 grain bullet then size it to .452 and paper patch it back to .459/.460 and use eather trail boss are like was said use 5744. but don't shoot a under size bullet. do it this way and you'll be safe and have a nice load good to 100 yards

coyotejoe · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2011, 05:13:03 AM »

Quote from: Ranch13 on November 20, 2011, 07:15:22 AM

Coyotejoe lots a luck, but that fiber wad will not hold the gases back, and you will get some pretty severe leading, and even if you don't turn that barrel into a shiny lead pipe,or ring the chamber, accuracy will likely be nonexistant. I'm almost wondering from the accuracy level you have already with that rifle, if you don't have the barrel full of lead now. You may want to run a flannel patch soaked in puregumspirits of turpentine on a jag thru the barrel followed by dry patch and see how many silver streaks come out on the patches.
Several of the powders that were available when Whelen wrote that article are still available.
If velocity at or below 1000 fps is your goal, simply use trailboss powder, there are very few loads with it that will get a bullet from a 45-70 above 1000fps.

I've been shooting cast bullets out of rifles and revolvers for 50+ years, I certainly know what a leaded bore looks like and know all too well how to clean it. LOL
No the accuracy issue with this H&R, an old "Shikari" model, is a crooked bore. To get on target I have the Williams rear peep maxed out for right windage and still had to knock the front sight noticeably off center to the left. The barrel looks straight on the outside and the bore is centered at both ends but the bore makes a left turn in between. I've seen that on one other H&R barrel, the bore was centered at the muzzle but when I cut it back 6" it was very much off center at that point.
As to any danger from wads, there ain't none, nothing at all dangerous about using wads in rifle cartridges so long as the wad is tight against the bullet base with no air space. As my original post stated, these .460" fiber wads are a very tight fit in the case and are seated with the bullet, there is no air space and no way an air space could develop, that wad won't wriggle down and I am crimping the case to prevent the bullet moving up.
Surely we all understand that the .45 Colt has about half the case capacity of a .45/70 and standard .45 Colt loads are held to about half the chamber pressure of standard 45/70 loads so using .45 Colt data can only produce pip squeek 45/70 loads. Of course I'm not referring to some of the things people are shooting from Ruger revolvers, that's way over what I'm looking for. I just want .45 Colt rifle ballistics, both velocity and bullet weight, from my 45/70 rifle.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 21, 2011, 05:23:49 AM »

Well I sure hope it works out for you, doesn't sound like you loose anything if you do ring the chamber on that thing.
I load up 2-3000 fiber wads every year in loads for my bpcr competition, you put a lot more faith in those things than I do. It's suprising how much lead you can pull from a "clean" barrel with the turpentine.
As far a 45 colt rifle ballistics, I've found that even when shooting saami spec colt loads the rifle will gain from 150-200 fps over the handguns, depending on the powder. Saami spec for the 45 colt is 14000 cup, and while the saami spec for the 45-70 is 28000 cup a good many of the standard velocity loads don't run over about 15000 cup. Blackpowder loads run down around 12000 cup.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2011, 09:30:32 AM »

I did get out today to blow off 15 rounds, five each with three different powders. Nothing to brag about, lets just call it a learning experience.
All three loads were way under pressure, they left black smudges on the brass indicating not sufficient pressure to expand the brass and seal the chamber. The first and worst was 10 grains of HS-6, that left black smudges all the way back to the rim and lots of unburned powder in the bore and even one noticeable hang fire, apparently that is well below the pressure threshold for effecient burning of HS-6. The 5 shot group was welll below point of aim and about 5" overall.
Next tried was 8 grains of Trail Boss. That burned a little cleaner but still sooty and grouped a little higher in about 4 1/2" ctc. This was at 50 yards resting over the hood of my truck.
Best, and not very good, was 13 grains of Unique. I've used that load with a 300 grain Laser Cast with OK results so I thought I'd try it with the 250 grain bullets. Recoil was noticeably more snappy than the two previous loads and it left the bore bright and clean. The brass was still smugded but not every one and not so badly as the two lesser loads. The group moved up to point of aim and measured 4" ctc.
I think the 13 grain Unique load is just approaching the minimum pressure threshold for effecient burning, another half grain or full grain might help. An increase of the charge might also help Trail Boss but I think I'll just leave the HS-6 in the can. I have Bullseye and Red Dot yet to try and I have maybe 50-60 bullets cast and lubed so I may as well shoot them. What I learned today was that any load with this bullet that comes anywhere near my 1,000 fps goal is going to be a very low pressure load and for once the concern is not over pressure but under pressure.
Oh, and after 15 rounds there was not a trace of lead. Those wads seemed to do what was needed in terms of sealing off any blowby around the bullet, understand these are shotgun type wads 1/2" long, not the little 1/32" thick wads used in black powder cartridges. They did leave a lot of dust on the hood of my truck though.

Bill,SC · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2011, 01:52:47 AM »

I have used Blue Dot for light loads in 45-70 for several years. From 300gr to 500gr, gc bullets have done very well in TC Encore and 1885. I have never used a wad of any kind. Several loads have been subsonic. Some have been 1200fps. It is the easiest light load I have found.

Swampman · « **Reply #19 on:** November 22, 2011, 01:58:30 AM »

Unique works great and you don't need a filler. I shoot 12 grains of unique under a 405 grain cast bullet and get 1/2" groups at 50 yards.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #20 on:** November 22, 2011, 02:04:18 AM »

we used to shoot hundreds of round balls out of the 4570 with 2.5 grains of bullseye. Im sure it would work with your bullet too but i agree with greybeard in that your going to want a bullet at least 458. Id steer clear of loading slower pistol powders down to much. Id stick with bullseye or nothing slower then unique.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #21 on:** November 27, 2011, 11:50:06 AM »

I tried out another 20 rounds today. I loaded ten cases with 13 grains of Unique and another ten with 10 grains of Red Dot. I thumb started the 1/2" wads flush with the case mouth and seated the bullet. With each powder I loaded five rounds with the 250 grain pistol bullet and five with a 300 grain Laser Cast .458" flat nose. I've had fair results with the Laser Cast bullet in the past.
I shot them at 50 yards resting over the hood of my truck, Williams peep sight and a big red bead front sight. The pistol bullet did pretty poor with Unique but with Red Dot it was as good as any group I've ever shot with this rifle. I fired the ten pistol bullets first to check for leading of the bore, not a trace. I suspect those who have said the fiber wad won't seal the bore are thinking of those little 1/32" fiber disks but I'm talking about shotgun type wads, 1/2" long.
Anyhow, In the attached photo the two top bulls were shot with the 300 grain Laser Cast, the lower ones with the 250 grain flat point home cast pistol bullets. The Unique loads are on the left, Red Dot on the right. The 300 grain bullet grouped in 2.55" with Unique and 2.63" with Red Dot. The pistol bullet grouped pretty poor with Unique at 3.84" but really looked good with Red Dot at 2.04". Obviously no "braggin' groups" but this rifle, with it's crooked bore has never shot a braggin group with any load of the many I've tried. The 300 grain bullet groups are about typical and the pistol bullet with Red Dot is way better than average. I'm going to be shooting more of those.
Click on the photo to enlarge. My chronograph is busted but I'm sure these loads are faster than the subsonic limit I was hoping for but at least I have enough pressure for consistent powder burn and no black smudges on the case walls as in my first attempts.

sphingta · « **Reply #22 on:** December 02, 2011, 12:42:31 PM »

when shooting very light loads(cat sneeze) i've heard (no personel experience) that heavy crimping is a must as it allows for more consistent ignition i.e. no detonation and also a more consistent pressure build up and accuracy. I'm hoping to find out soon since i just bought a bunch of 405 gr. lasercast for my B.C.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #23 on:** December 06, 2011, 06:55:13 AM »

Yes, that is another problem with the very light bullets I'm shooting, they don't have the inertial resistance of a heavier bullet and at the sub-sonic velocities I was hoping for there isn't enough pressure build up for a clean powder burn. That is why I had to increase my powder charge to start getting satisfactory results. With the 405 grain bullets you probably won't have a problem.

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 06, 2011, 07:16:55 AM »

Western Bullet sells a 145 grain "Collarbutton" in .458. I have loaded them over 10 grains of Trailboss for several years as a rabbit load for trips into the deep woods so I only have to carry one rifle. If you really want a light load in a 45-70 I strongly recommend them. They're cheap, correctly sized to the bore, and come Pre-lubed. I order them by the hundreds.

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 06, 2011, 07:24:07 AM »

Another user also posted about a .458 bullet from Outlaw State that is designed to expand at subsonic velocities.

GH1 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 06, 2011, 09:30:12 AM »

Quote from: kevinsmith5 on December 06, 2011, 07:16:55 AM

Western Bullet sells a 145 grain "Collarbutton" in .458. I have loaded them over 10 grains of Trailboss for several years as a rabbit load for trips into the deep woods so I only have to carry one rifle. If you really want a light load in a 45-70 I strongly recommend them. They're cheap, correctly sized to the bore, and come Pre-lubed. I order them by the hundreds.

I've loaded those over TB as well, but I can't remember the charge. They shot well out of my friends Winchester. The only thing I didn't like was the over abundance of red lube on the bullets. It got to be a bit messy.
GH1