Author Topic: Matching loads to recoil springs.  (Read 1277 times)

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Offline hubcap

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Matching loads to recoil springs.
« on: January 11, 2004, 09:02:57 PM »
I'm planning on starting to do some bullseye shooting at our club. I just got a master calibration pack of Wolff springs and was wondering what kind of loads to match up with the springs.  It's a 50 ft. match, so I'm thinking that using a 9 or 10 lb. spring would work for some really lite loads. Any advice or suggestions on loads, what to do/not do? Thanx in advance.
:D   GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME

Offline Mikey

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Recoil Springs
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2004, 05:24:34 AM »
hubcap, you are pretty close to being there already.  I would not go below the 10 lb recoil spring weight with light or target loads, regardless of the distance you are shooting at.  The factory spring weights for the use of GI ammo for 230 gn ball at 850-875'/sec is 16-18 lb.  I usually install a 22 lb sping kit as I just shoot hardball.  You may have to experiment with spring weights but 10 lb is the lowest I would go and maybe even not below 12.  It depends on how hard your slide recoils with the target loads.  If you have hard recoil, go with a heavier spring.  HTH.  Mikey.

Offline Iowegan

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Matching loads to recoil springs.
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2004, 09:38:05 AM »
The best solution for recoil springs is to use the heaviest spring you can that will still make the gun function properly. Look for failures to feed (too light) and failures to extract (too heavy). If you go too light, the frame and slide will suffer from recoil battering. Also, your brass will fly a mile.   My Colt cycles perfect with a 14 lb spring and 200 gr SWC's with 4 gr of Win 231. If I go to a 185 gr SWC with the same powder charge, I have to go to a 12 lb spring. For 230 gr LRN's I like 5 gr of 231 and use a 18 lb spring. For the 230 gr hardball loaded with 6 gr of Unique, I use a 22 pounder. Your first clue of a recoil spring that is too light is how far the empties fly compaired to factory springs and factory ammo.
GLB

Offline ButlerFord45

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Matching loads to recoil springs.
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2004, 02:11:36 PM »
An excellent thread from another forum by someone who appears to be quite knowledgeable.  I'd be happy to introduce the poster, but I don't know him, I only found the site today.  Since we've been tossing around spring rates recently, I thought this article would be appropriate



http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57241


"A question that often comes up is: "How heavy should my recoil spring be for X bullet weight at Y velocity?

The usual advice is to step up the spring loading as pressure and velocity
increase. For example, the common advice when using a 185-grain +P+
scorcher is to move up to a higher level on the recoil spring. The catch is
that cartridge pressure has little to do with it.

Ned Christiansen conducted a test in which he fired a 1911 pistol without a recoil spring in the gun. There was little, if any, effect on the timing of the barrel unlocking from the slide...so the loading of the recoil spring doesn't play much of a role in containing pressure. Therefore, we can accept that the difference between a 16 and a 20 pound rating is pretty much insignifigant when the slide is in battery, and the effect that either have in keeping the barrel and slide locked together is virtually nil.

Now, most of us know that the standard recoil spring for the 5-inch
pistols is 16 pounds, and 18 for the Commanders. Shorter pistols are
in a class to themselves, and come with their own set of nuances,
so I'll keep this confined to the two variations mentioned above.

The problem with increasing the spring rate beyond certain limits is that it
can bring on certain issues related to the slide timing. The spring works both ways. Slow backward means fast forward, and vice-versa. For the record, I have never found a new Colt Commander or Combat Commander with a factory spring that tested at 18 pounds, and the bigest majority of 5-inch Colt springs don't test at 16...and I've made a nuisance of myself at local shops by going around testing them. The Commander springs generally fall between 16 and 17, while the GM class rarely go over 15 pounds at full compression....just shy of coil bind. Another thing that I've noticed is that very often, two springs in identical pistols will vary a little on the coil count...one-half to one full coil. Why? Are they being tuned to the gun on an individual basis? Colt isn't talking, so I have to assume so, and the reason is...again assumed...to make the pistol less dependent on the magazine spring tension. The slower the slide moves forward, the more time the magazine has to get the round in position.

I've often tuned springs to guns by clipping coils. Rule of thumb is if I can't
get what I want with a maximum of two coils removed, time to drop to the
next level and start over. It's worked well for me. Again, my main concern is reliability, and not 100,000 rounds downrange.

This is all easy enough when using hardball ammo, or the equivalent in
terms of velocity and bullet weight...but where do we start when trying
something different? Where do we start? One approach is to buy several
springs in various loadings and try them all. Not very cost effective, and
we wind up with a few unused springs lying around. What to do?

By working some numbers in reverse, I've come up with a formula that
works...Not always with all pistol/ammo combinations, but it will get you
very close 99% of the time. It works thus:

Multiply the velocity by .02 (Point Zero 2) and that is your spring rate for a
230 grain bullet at hardball-spec velocity in a 5-inch gun. If we take
230 at 830fps +/- 25 fps(Ordnance hardball spec) we find that the
spring rate will work out at somewhere between 16 and 17 pounds.
Browning split the difference at 16.5 for his pistol. Coincidence?

Now, a 200 grain bullet at 900 fps. 900X.02 gives us an 18-pound spring,
but the bullet mass is reduced. To account for that reduction, figure the
percentage difference between the 230 and the 200 grain bullets. It
works out to about 11% difference. 11% of 18 is 1.88...round up to
1.9 and subtract. We're back to the 16 pound spring, or very close.

Using a 230 at 900 fps? An 18-pound spring should do nicely. A 200 at
1,000? 1,000X.2=20-1.9=18.1...An 18-pound spring will get you very close to optimum without going too high unnecessarily.

Commander? Again, we're dealing with mass and velocity. Plug in the
percentage difference in slide weight...In this case, the Commander slide is
about 10% lighter than the GM slide, on average. This time, ADD the difference. A 230-grain bullet at 830 fps takes a 16-pound spring in a
5-inch gun plus 10%, works out to be...well, whaddaya know...17.6
pounds, or very close to the accepted standard for Commanders.

Dropping down to a 200 grain bullet in a Commander? Add the difference in the slide weight, then subtract the difference in bullet weight, both from
the 16-pound constant.

Some few like to use a heavier bullet...say 250 grains at 750 fps. Now
we ADD the percentage difference in the bullets. Here, VelocityX.2 gives
us a 15-pound spring. Adding the percentage difference of the bullets
results in an adjustment of about 8%, and we have a 16.2-pound spring.
A variable 16.5 pound Wolff should do nicely here.

One thing to keep in mind is that springs, like any mass-produced item,
have tolerances. They vary. Just because the package says 16 pounds doesn't mean that it will TEST at a true 16 pounds. It may test at 16.5.
Clipping a half-coil off a 32 coil spring will reduce it roughly one-half-pound.

These figures and calculations won't be exact in any given pistol because
every pistol has its own characteristics. Of two identical guns, one will
do fine with a heavy spring, and the other won't. These formulas will give you a good starting point, and nothing more. Most of the time, it works.
Once in a while, the pistol will defy all logic, and go in the opposite direction. All this assumes that the magazine springs are up to the task of
reliable feeding, and that the barrel and throat are good.

Luck to ya!

Tuner"
Butler Ford
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci
An armed society is a polite society-Robert A. Heinlein
Only the dead have seen the end of war- Plato
Lord, make my words as sweet as honey
tomorrow I may have to eat them- A lady's sweatshirt

Offline Iowegan

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Matching loads to recoil springs.
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2004, 08:16:15 PM »
ButlerFord45,

Your recoil spring tutorial is excellent and tracks pretty close to other references I've seen. Your formulas are very simple and accurate.

According to basic physics, there are three properties related to springs. If you cut a 20 lb spring in half, you get 2 shorter 20 lb springs. Try it with your spring tester. Actually, each coil represents 20 lbs of tension so if you have 5 or a hundred coils it will always measure 20lbs. Cutting coils does not reduce the spring tension, but it does reduce the amount of energy stored in the spring when compressed. The formula must include spring travel (in feet), coil numbers, and tension (in lbs) to get actual ft lbs of energy. Example: a standard 16 lb Colt spring for a full-sized 45 will have about 32 coils. The throw of the spring for a Govt Mod Colt (slide throw) is 1.75" or.146 feet. Each coil represents 16 lbs so with a 32 coil spring, the spring energy will be .146*16*32 or about 75 ft lbs. In an 18 lb Commander spring, there are 24 coils and a slide throw of 1.5” or .125 ft. (.125*18*24) or 54 ft lbs of energy. Less energy is required with the Commander because the slide is lighter.

When you tested springs at the shop and found ones with a different number of coils, I'll bet the ones with fewer coils were slightly stiffer, thus making the energy the same. Likewise, the ones you tested that were light tension probably had an extra coil or two.  In other words, tension is only part of the formula; you must also consider coil count and throw to get total energy. Because the throw is constant and coils are about the same, the only variable you had in your formula was tension, and that's why the formulas were accurate.

The reason some guns defy physics is friction, which is not considered in the formulas. Most guns have more friction on the front stroke than on the rear stroke. This makes the gun want more spring energy to return the slide than it stores from spring compression. Depending on how tight the slide, barrel bushing, and magazine, sometimes the computed value just won’t work. The only solution is to experiment and find a spring that will allow the gun to feed and extract properly. I hope this adds to your already informative recoil spring lesson.
GLB

Offline DEPUTY

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Matching loads to recoil springs.
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2004, 05:56:42 PM »
ned is a great guy and knows his guns top notch gunsmith