Author Topic: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?  (Read 1692 times)

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Offline Kjosefy

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Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« on: December 18, 2011, 08:10:40 PM »
I have a King Howitzer and i going to put it on a navel style carriage that's all i can afford right now. Here is a pic what i got so far. Someone said they didn't know what type carriage they were on originally but i am pretty sure they were field artillery not a navel gun.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2011, 12:36:30 AM »
Kjosefy -

Cannoneers' Heaven and Hell is a theological topic we've not discussed here.  Might could be worthy of some in-depth discussions over a pint or so of Artillery Grog. 

Perhaps a seance with Danniel King is in order?

I LIKE your idea!  Keep the pictures coming!

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2011, 12:57:47 AM »
Question: What is hell to a cannoneer?
Answer: A place with no cannon (of course). :'(

I've never seen a Daniel King howitzer mounted on a four truck naval carriage before, but there's got to be a first time for everything. ;)
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline little seacoast

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 02:15:27 AM »
If you go to hell for that you'll have plenty of company.  Heresy is in the eye (or mind) of the beholder.

Napoleon would blush....
America has no native criminal class except Congress.   Sam Clemens

Offline Soot

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 03:04:02 AM »
Napoleon himself said " God fights on the side with the best artillery."
So if it gets the job done, no you wont.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2011, 04:12:28 AM »
      Kjosefy,   No, you won't be going there for that little indiscretion.  Actually, I think it will look acceptable and certainly interesting.  However if you have been doing lots of bad stuff that we don't know about and you are pretty sure that Hell is your destination, well...........here is a recipe for Artillery Punch that will fortify you for the trip!  I made lots of this stuff while stationed at Fort Polk, Louisiana and it was a hit at many parties.  It has been written that this stuff will protect you from a whole Regiment of Artillery, maybe two!!
Tracy


Modern recipe from:  Marleigh Miller's article posted at www.seriouseats.com    My punch was very similar to this one and used Grenadine for color, 4 to 6 oz.

"To finish off this roundup of recipes from Dave Wondrich's Punch, I have selected a monster. The big dog. The epic, party-starting, punch-to-end-all-punches: Chatham Artillery Punch.

But what is this Chatham, you ask, and why does it come bearing artillery?
In the mid-nineteenth century, an all-volunteer Savannah regiment called the Republican Blues, organized in 1808 and stationed at Fort Jackson, visited Macon. The modus operandi of many of these old Savannah units was as much social and fraternal as military, so the Blues were greeted with much fanfare by the Chatham Artillery unit. An obliging local patriot by the name of A.H. Luce "proposed to brew a new punch in honor of the Blues," and the Chatham Artillery Punch was born.

There are a variety of recipes to be found for this punch—all different from this original, robust version—primarily because successive generations found its intoxicating power a little too, well, intoxicating. As Wondrich notes in this quotation from the headnote on a 1907 recipe: "Experience has taught the rising generation to modify the receipt of their forefathers to conform to the weaker constitutions of their progeny." (Ouch.) Most modernized Chatham Artillery recipes are weaker than the original formula, which is certainly strong enough to stand up to an artillery regiment. Or two.

This recipe makes a very large quantity of punch, so save it for a large gathering or reduce the proportions—even then, you may need to prepare a spare room for potentially tipsy travelers. You'll need a full bottle each of cognac, bourbon and rum, as well as three (yes, three) bottles of Champagne. If this is starting to sound like Jungle Juice, just bear with me. The Chatham Artillery Punch is potent for sure, but it's also delicious.

Be sure to use the best quality spirits you can to get the tastiest results. For the cognac, I used Pierre Ferrand Ambre but any good cognac or even a domestic alambic brandy like Osocalis would work; for the bourbon I used Four Roses Yellow Label, but you could also try Buffalo Trace, Russell's Reserve 6-year or, for a spicier result, Bulleit. In rum you need a Jamaican style; I used Plantation Jamaica 2000 but Appleton Estate V/X or 12-year would be nice here as well. For the sparkling wine, true French Champagne will be truly delicious—you're not just topping off with the stuff. But a good sparkling wine from elsewhere will work, too."

And finally, imbibe cautiously! As the Augusta Chronicle noted when it printed this recipe: "As a vanquisher of men its equal has never been found."

About the author: Marleigh Riggins Miller writes and photographs for SLOSHED!, a website about cocktails, spirits, home bartending, and entertaining.
 
 
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2011, 10:16:10 AM »
Canoneers Hell would be a place where the powder is continually damp and the friction primers all misfire.

I think that the idea of using the "wrong" carriage is as much theological opinion as anything else. The Dahlgren Boat Howitzer, with both boat and field carriages, shows that a good tube can go on either.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2011, 11:09:56 AM »
While it is pretty unlikely that the King howitzers of the 1790's were ever on ship-style carriages, apparently similar pieces were used shipboard during the Revolutionary War.  See this article from MC&H Winter 1987.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline The Jeff

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2011, 11:51:43 AM »
I know this is a Civil War example, but at least one howitzer made it onto a ship!

Offline buzz36

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2011, 02:48:39 PM »
I vote go for it  a quiet tube is hell for the cannoneer make smoke and noise when you have the funds make the carriage you like then you have this carriage already for another tube
sounds like a good plan to me
 

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2011, 03:16:32 PM »

I know this is a Civil War example, but at least one howitzer made it onto a ship!


     
     Here is another view of the pattern 1840 8" Siege Howitzer on the Pawnee.  We described how this happened about a year ago, but we dislike links, so here is a condensed version of the interesting story of exactly how that gun came to be on the deck of the Pawnee in Charleston Harbor, South Carolina.  Although this Federal ship had this powerful howitzer and a 100 Pdr. Parrott Rifle on board, it was all those nasty 9" Dahlgren Shell Guns which gave the Rebel Artillerymen such trouble 148 years ago, this coming Sunday, Christmas Day!






         The real question that needs to be answered is this one:  How did the Federal Navy come into possession of two Confederate, 8-Inch Siege Howitzers?  The Rebels were very, I mean Really Upset about the ‘theft of boards’ from their houses in Legareville about 4 miles south of Ft. Sumter.  They decided to launch an Artillery attack upon the troops doing it and the Federal gunboats supporting them.  We get the following very brief synopsis of events from The Big Guns by Olmstead, Stark and Tucker:  “Two surviving in Washington Navy Yard, one of them trophy No. 6, are defaced beyond specific identification.  Tredegar Foundry might have cast them from Federal patterns at hand.  Exceptionally complete documentation related their role in defending the southern approaches to Charleston, South Carolina.  Federal troops drove Confederates, commanded by Major Edward Manigault, from both howitzers on Christmas day, 1863.

     If you don’t like to read about historical events, you can stop right here.  If you want to find out exactly why ship’s carpenters had to design and build a carriage for a big Army howitzer, read on.
 
        The following map from the book, Siege Train, The Journal of a Confederate Artilleryman in the Defense of Charleston,  Edited by Warren Ripley, shows the position of the 8” Howitzers and other significant places mentioned in Maj. Manigault’s Diary.  A map of Maj. Manigault's area of responsibility for the CSA Artillery Siege Train showing various batteries and significant locations noted in his diary entries pertaining to the CSA Expedition against Federal troops and Gunboats near Legareville.




     From  Siege Train edited by Warren Ripley who also wrote Artillery and Ammunition of the Civil War,  we learn this:  “It was known from Capt. Walpole’s Scout Company on John’s Island that the Yankees were pulling down the houses at Legareville and carrying the Materials over to Kiawah Island to erect buildings for sheltering the troops there.  The party engaged in pulling down these houses was protected by one, or sometimes two, Gunboats anchored just in front of Legareville.
 
    It was accordingly determined to send an Expedition to endeavor to capture, sink, or cripple the Gunboats, or at least to drive them off, and to capture the party in the village engaged in pulling down the houses

    There was only one Gunboat (supposed to be the Marblehead) visible.  The night was a brilliantly clear Moonlit night.  Moon full, pretty cold.  At 6 A.M. Webb’s two 30 pndr. Parrotts and Nesbit’s two 8 in. Howitzers opened fire on the gunboat, distance estimated variously at from 600 to 1,000 yds.  Capt. Chrles’ Napoleon guns also opened on the Gunboat.  It was some minutes before Marblehead replied, but the officers all say that when she did her practice was beautiful.  The Pawnee which was lying round a point, and before [she moved] was invisible to our troops, immediately got under way and and ran into the Kiawah River where She took up a position and enfiladed the different Batteries.  A schooner-rigged Gunboat [C. P. Williams] also immediately made sail from her anchorage near Cole’s Island and came to the assistance of the Marblehead.  After about ¾ of an hour the enemies fire became so hot that Col Kemper determined to withdraw the guns.

     It was impossible to get together more than 7 horses with which the first howitzer was got off.  Private W. F. Johnson of Co. “B” was killed instantly by the same shell which killed his two horses.  Several others experienced concussions from bursting of shells near them. 
     
The 8 in. Howitzer at the lower Battery under command of Capt. Schultz [Schulz] was also abandoned in consequence of of the breaking of the harness and running away of the horses, who were twice hitched in, and broke away both times; after which Capt. Schultz ordered the howitzer to be abandoned.

     Their recapture frustrated, they were removed three days later by Union landing parties from U.S. ships Pawnee, Marblehead, and C. P. Williams.”  Today both of these howitzers are located at the Washington Navy Yard.
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2011, 03:40:25 PM »

I know this is a Civil War example, but at least one howitzer made it onto a ship!


     






         

     If you don’t like to read about historical events, you can stop right here.  If you want to find out exactly why ship’s carpenters had to design and build a carriage for a big Army howitzer, read on.
 


Okay so you told us how these guns came to be captured, so why did the ship carpenters have to build carriages for them? 

I think this stye carriage would look good with one of Ed Hart's pack parrots or 8 inch siege howitzer.

Offline Mike H.

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2011, 04:39:42 PM »
Quote


   
I think this stye carriage would look good with one of Ed Hart's pack parrots or 8 inch siege howitzer.

That's a good idea.  And I happen to have one laying around here (1/6 scale siege howitzer).  And a set iron wheels.  Who needs wagon wheels!

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2011, 04:45:29 PM »
     Double D.,   I know that you have read more than a few books about the Civil War.  I know for a fact that you have visited quite a few CW historic sites and know that both sides in that conflict used pretty much the same carriages and mostly the same field and siege artillery pieces including the Pattern 1840  8" Siege Howitzer with it's heavy Siege Carriage.  Please look carefully at the photo below of the siege gun carriage and gun which we borrowed from the excellent site, To the sound of the guns.  The image is from Ft. Donelson, Tennessee on the Cumberland River.






     Can you really imagine sailors aboard the Pawnee lashing this huge beast of a siege carriage down somewhere on that ship and trying to fight this gun known for it's fearsome recoil of approx 16 feet with a standard load of 4 Lbs. BP in back of a 50 Lb shell?  They weren't stupid, you know.  Besides being more familiar to them, the 4 truck carriage could be maneuvered more quickly and was much easier to lash down and secure.

Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2011, 05:37:28 PM »
And I have a picture of Katherine standing by a parrot on one of these siege carriages at Fort  McAllister .  Yes I know how big it is.

Small by most naval gun standards and just another piece cargo to lash down if taken as a trophy.  But yes probably not suitable for gundeck deployment.

So you are saying that not only did the Pawnee capture this gun, they fought it. 

That's a two truck carriage by the way.  Is it a standard wooden navel Marsilly pattern?

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2011, 06:59:00 PM »
I've got a question , was there a grape/ canister load for this 8" howie ? I can see it as very usefull gun in some situations .....
 
Would they deploy it on one side or the other ? or shoot from the center of the ship ?
 
It is ugly as heck in a brutish sort of way . Yet some how satisfying ;D  if it is your friend .
Gary
 
ETA to say ... nah no hell for this ,it could have been some mast top gun ...... or a 'boat gun' of some type .
I saw a carronade at the Alamo !! it was used in the fight as far as I know.
 
Gary
 
 
 
 
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2011, 07:42:44 PM »
And I have a picture of Katherine standing by a parrot on one of these siege carriages at Fort  McAllister .  Yes I know how big it is.

Small by most naval gun standards and just another piece cargo to lash down if taken as a trophy.  But yes probably not suitable for gundeck deployment.

So you are saying that not only did the Pawnee capture this gun, they fought it.

That's a two truck carriage by the way.  Is it a standard wooden navel Marsilly pattern?



 
   No,  I clearly indicated that the sailors would be foolish to try to fight this siege gun on it's original, large, siege carriage, noted for long recoil and unwieldiness .   

    Yes, my mistake, that carriage is a two truck Marsilly, while different in some respects from the 1859 Standard Marsilly ship-board gun carriage for the 9" Dahlgren Shell Gun and the 100 Pdr. Parrott, is remarkably similar.  The bolster to support the quoin is higher than the 1859 carriage and the forward edge of the cheeks poke out quite a bit forward of the trunnions and lots of hardware is missing.   It is a much simplified carriage primarily designed to get this prize gun north to the Washington Navy Yard where it remains today.




I've got a question , was there a grape/ canister load for this 8" howie ?I can see it as very usefull gun in some situations .....  Would they deploy it on one side or the other ? or shoot from the center of the ship ?It is ugly as heck in a brutish sort of way . Yet some how satisfying ;D    if it is your friend .Gary   
[/color]


    Gary,   Yes, there certainly was both a grape And a canister load for this ugly, brute of a howitzer. Remember that in the 1840s grape was a favored load, even with the Army.  The thought of what a full bucket of canister would do from one of these 8 inchers is chilling.  It's surprising that it's tube only weighs about 2,630 Lbs.  Looks like more.  That's why the carriage looks so big.  The tube is not.  That 1859 Marsilly carriage was designed to mount the 9,000 Lb. 9" Dahlgren and the 9,800 Lb. 100 Pdr. Parrott Rifle.

     They probably wouldn't have shells for this gun on board, but a 'made-up' canister charge was certainly a possibility, but you would not want to fire that from the centerline of the ship!  Maybe that's why the carriage looks so high.  Maybe they wanted it to be able to shoot over the lower gun whale located on the spar deck.

Tracy

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline ironball

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 07:52:22 PM »
I have a King Howitzer and i going to put it on a navel style carriage that's all i can afford right now. Here is a pic what i got so far. Someone said they didn't know what type carriage they were on originally but i am pretty sure they were field artillery not a navel gun.


 
Well, if you can trust those guys at Hern Iron Works, the Spaniards were using howitzers on ships. From their website...
Quote
The Spanish Howitzer, in silhouette, is uniform. That is, it is a cylinder and marked only by reinforcing band, trunnion assembly and cascable. The firearm was used on shipboard to set fire to an enemy's sails.
So it wouldn't be a surprise to find that a King was used the same way during the Revolutionary War.
Never let the people with all the money and the people with all the guns be the same people.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 08:01:52 PM »
Actually howiters were used on ships in the book Boarders Away there is one or two examples including a Paul Revere  Bronze howitzer used as a swivel gun in the fighting tops....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2011, 04:40:05 AM »
Question: What is hell to a cannoneer?
Answer: A place with no cannon (of course). :'(
...

Another answer:  A place with cannons, powder, cannon balls, fuse AND NO FLAME.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2011, 07:11:15 AM »
Cat,
That's certainly a valid speculation, but I tend to imagine hell in terms of absolutes like none.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Am I going to cannoneers Hell?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2011, 04:57:42 PM »
Cat,
That's certainly a valid speculation, but I tend to imagine hell in terms of absolutes like none.

I certainly won't push the theological arguements far - there are enough REAL enemies to the 2nd Ammendment without getting off on a theological tangent.
 ;) ;D
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)