Whats All The Hub Bub, Bub !

[Woodsman1]

This is just for curiosity all, But, Ive noticed on many of the gun forums I belond too, that alot of peaple are worried about bullet weight and penatration, of a 357 magnum as a defence gun, along with numerous other calibers too !  So, my question is, are humans and animals stronger and harder today, than yester year to take down ?  Or is it all a bunch of hog wash ? 

[Tom W.]

Kevlar.....And super genetic mutation deer...

[Dee]

The 125 grain JHP in 357 magnum revolver still has the best one shot stopping record in L.E. history, and has had for 30+ years, as per FBI statistics on nation wide police shootings. The 357Sig does not count as a 357 magnum because it isn't. I do however think, that the 40S&W will do as well, and in some cases perhaps better with time. All these computer designed hollow point bullet worshipers, that love the minor calibers, need to pay heed to what actually works in the real world, rather than the gun rag ballistic charts.
And no, humans, the thinnest skinned of all animals, aren't any tougher to bring down than they ever were. Errr. Except for the PCP users. Deer and such? Naw!

[hillbill]

hog wash mostly im thinkin. people used to be a lot tuffer than they are now but animals about the same as they always was.

[tacklebury]

Thanks, I'll stick to big bore .45 ACP or Colt.    I know there's bigger, but these do fine for my needs.  Proven stopping power. 

[Lloyd Smale]

ALOT of the criminals that the police are shooting at these days are pumped up on drugs and a bit harder to kill. Shootings are also alot more common now then they were 25 years ago so im sure its caused our police depts. to look a bit harder at what will keep there troopers alive. There was a time when the 32 s&w was considered a good police round. Do you think they were right there too! The 357 has about go away as a police round other then a back up gun. Reason is there .40sw autos hold more ammo recoil less and have much less muzzle blast. But in now way is the .40 going to put down living things as well as a 125 hp out of a 357. I think if you go back to the postings your refering too that if anything there probably worried about overpenetration.

[Ken ONeill]

" ... is it all a bunch of hog wash?" Yes, it is.

[Mikey]

Ken O Neill time 2.  It's all a bunch of hogwash.  However, you don't necessarily want to go hunting Whitetail with something you would use for personal defense as hollowpoints and soft nosed slugs do not always work the way they should on game animals.
 
For two legged predators - anybody who needs to be shot once should most probably be shot twice and unless you are vastly experienced in this regard it probably won't matter as you will continue to fire until you hear the gun go 'click', six more times.......
 
And, isn't it so like marketing people to dis something that has come before in favor of something they want to sell? 
 
The 357 with standard 158 gn factory slugs from Rem or Win or Federal or just about anyone else, from a 4-6" bbl, should not have any problems anchoring Whitetail out to about 50m.  jmtcw.

[SHOOTALL]

  Years ago hunters got close to take shot now its longer shots . Bad guys + drugs = harder to stop.
and back in the day nither deer or bad guys were all bang flops

[Empty Quiver]

Another thing is that the over penetration worries concern shooting through two layers of drywall, and hitting the neighbor, asleep on the couch.  In the past more homes were constructed using plaster and lathe. There were fewer apartment complexes, and quite honestly fewer calibre choices.


Given the concerns and the options, why continue to use a .357mag.?  As a homeowner / citizen defending your life or property you have little to no need to penetrate barriers. You are going to have a crap ton of explaining to do if you are firing on someone from over about fifteen yards, they had better be firing on you. Given the above considerations .38+p ought to do an excellent job as a defensive load at home, load up with the mags in the field.


That is the hub bub in my opinion. If you are in the rural parts of the country, don't live in a crappy apt. with kleenex for walls, I can understand your confusion.

[bfrshooter]

It is very simple.
The .357 has always been one of the best for bad guy shooting because bullets are fragile and open fast. But you get one lung, not two so you keep shooting.
Use a hard bullet and you need to empty the gun but then you also have over penetration, not good.
Deer and animals are different so bullet choice is far more important because you want to destroy TWO lungs so the fast opening, fragile bullet is out. The tiny entrance hole will not leave a blood trail either.
Small caliber bullets are light and though fast, stop fast. Go up in weight and use a very controlled expansion and they work for deer just fine---100% different then you want for a BG.
To compare any animal to a junked up jerk is a big mistake. But it is also wrong to think deer are fragile and fall down with any hit.
The big problem with the .357 for hunting is bullet selection and if you think the best self defense round will blow deer off their feet, you are in ga-ga land. It is the worst comparison you can make.
My opinion, the .44 mag is the best starting point for deer and up. Even the .44 works better with 300 gr to 330 gr bullets. Weight, penetration, enough energy to disrupt internals, two holes for blood trails, etc.
I feel a .357 is a great woodchuck gun and will never own another. It is just a weak sister that is too finicky for the bullet used.
Statistics show only a 50% recovery of deer shot with the .357.
Nothing has gotten tougher to kill but the little guns have not taken up the task because they can't.
The very best comments will be to hit the deer RIGHT THERE every time. It is so funny as to be ridiculous. Most revolver shooters can't hold a foot group at 50 yards! Shake them up with buck fever and look out!
It is not "hogwash", it is fact. Bigger kills animals better.   

[Frank2]

bfrshooter:

Statistics show only a 50% recovery of deer shot with the .357.

I don't see how a .357 magnum shooting a good heavy bullet like a WFN couldn't possibly stop a whitetail deer.  Maybe as you say if they are using HP's which open too fast.  What's the problem? 

[Hit or Miss]

Put the bullet where it belongs on a deer and the deer will die!  After all, I kill them with sharp, pointy sticks!   Keep in mind that today's factory ammo is downloaded from what they used in the past too.

[Empty Quiver]

bfrshooter:

Statistics show only a 50% recovery of deer shot with the .357.

I don't see how a .357 magnum shooting a good heavy bullet like a WFN couldn't possibly stop a whitetail deer.  Maybe as you say if they are using HP's which open too fast.  What's the problem?

I don't believe killing is the problem it's recovering them.

[Frank2]

bfrshooter:

Frank, it just does not work that way. No way to make the caliber foolproof.

I agree.  But some hunters with .475 lose deer also.  So nothing is fool proof. 


I still think a .38 could do well even.  Now you have the advantage of quick an accurate follow-up shots.


50% recovery, then you add a good bullet, an accurate load and a capable shooter should be able to handle big game. 

[Frank2]

OK, then.  What was the 7mm mag's problem?  Or the 12 ga?  Should they have left them home?   

[Dee]

ALOT of the criminals that the police are shooting at these days are pumped up on drugs and a bit harder to kill. Shootings are also alot more common now then they were 25 years ago so im sure its caused our police depts. to look a bit harder at what will keep there troopers alive. There was a time when the 32 s&w was considered a good police round. Do you think they were right there too! The 357 has about go away as a police round other then a back up gun. Reason is there .40sw autos hold more ammo recoil less and have much less muzzle blast. But in now way is the .40 going to put down living things as well as a 125 hp out of a 357. I think if you go back to the postings your refering too that if anything there probably worried about overpenetration.

Head to head, Lloyd, I think we would agree. I have always been a 357mag fan, but it's kinda like the American Indian and the bow. As long as white-eyes was shootin the single shot, the Indian could shoot more arrows than whitey could shoot bullets. But ahhhh the lever action appeared, and the Yatahey traded his bow for the repeating rifle.
There is something about the flat point 180 grain 40 S&W that I like. Weight, bullet configuration, and caliber. It too, is a bone breaker.

[SHOOTALL]

Statistics show only a 50% recovery of deer shot with the .357.
Nothing has gotten tougher to kill but the little guns have not taken up the task because they can't.

   
 
 
 
 
But then over 50% of statistics are made up to suit a cause     
 
there are most likely more bullets aval. fo a 357 cal. than any other size. If a 200 gr 44 cal bullet is good for deer a 200 gr 357 cal bullet should be as good or better . With the bullets aval. today a shooter should be able to find just the right one.

[WD45]

kinda makes one wonder how and where they come up with those stats ? Heck , most places around here are so thick that its not hard to lose a deer no mater what it's shot with. It is really 2 different subjects in my mind. Mr Wesson was taking all sorts of big game with his 357 mag but I doubt it was with 125 grain hollow points. I would venture to say that the average hunter does not take a lot of consideration as to the type of ammo he hunts with or uses for self defense as we do. More than likely its what ever is on sale at Wally world. How many you think even know just what a Keith style bullet is or who Elmer Keith even was ? We also have no clue as to the circustances around all these supposed lost deer. What ammo were they useing  ? What time of day ? just about dark ?  What was the terrain?  where was the animal hit ? just how many people were serveyed ? 2 ?

[Gene R]

(Statistics show only a 50% recovery of deer shot with the .357.)
Truth be told, you would/could find simular statistics for deer shot with a handgun period. As most do not spend enough time practicing to have the proper shot placement.
Between my 2 sons and I, we have killed 4-6 deer and 15-20 hogs with a .357 over the past several years and every one has made it to the freezer. In fact I dont believe we have had one go over 75 yards. I can chuck up a few more of both to the .45LC, and some more with the .44mag. We haven't lost one yet(nock on wood) Im sure it will happen sooner or later, as it has happened several times with my rifles over the last 30years.
Ocasionally you will find that a buck that got away, although you blew his heat and lungs clean out with a 30-06, cant explait it but it happens. In the 30 years of hunting I have killed arround 200 or so whitetail with a rifle and lost maybe 3-4. Have seen several shot this year with a 25-06 and .270 and low and behold no blood trail, lucky for us we circiled and circled and found them within 40-75 yards but some drop in their tracks with the exact same guns/ammo ect.
The fact is that bigger guns DO NOT REPLACE PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT, and you should use a proper caliber (my opinion is .357 and up) that you can shoot accuratley. If you cant shoot a .44 accuratley you darn sure shouldn't be hunting with it.
Its hunting and there are no guarantees..............But it sure beats sitting on the couch...
 

[Woodsman1]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I guess I was just thinking maybe we as hand gunners, tend to over analyze everything from what caliber of bullet to use, to how much power we really need.

[bfrshooter]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I guess I was just thinking maybe we as hand gunners, tend to over analyze everything from what caliber of bullet to use, to how much power we really need.

In my opinion the .357 will do all that is needed but that has not been what has happened. The stats were taken long ago about 1957 or 58 and there was a big writeup.
The problem has always been bullet selection so if you go to Wall Mart and buy a box, you have no idea what they will do on game.
The caliber really needs to be hand loaded  with the right bullet for what you intend to shoot.
Velocity and muzzle energy doesn't mean a thing. You want some bullet weight, controlled expansion and penetration.
You are not going to find that with factory loaded 158 gr hollow points with thin jackets and soft lead. You want energy applied over a longer distance in the animal.
Here is a picture of applied energy. Four one gallon jugs of water blown sky high, two more split bad and the bullet went through 14 jugs. Many think that one jug blown is enough and they catch the bullet in the second jug.

[Bob Riebe]

The 125 grain JHP in 357 magnum revolver still has the best one shot stopping record in L.E. history, and has had for 30+ years, as per FBI statistics on nation wide police shootings. The 357Sig does not count as a 357 magnum because it isn't. I do however think, that the 40S&W will do as well, and in some cases perhaps better with time. All these computer designed hollow point bullet worshipers, that love the minor calibers, need to pay heed to what actually works in the real world, rather than the gun rag ballistic charts.
And no, humans, the thinnest skinned of all animals, aren't any tougher to bring down than they ever were. Errr. Except for the PCP users. Deer and such? Naw!

But isn't that at least partly due to the fact that LE agencies did not allow their officers to carry Government model 1911 pistols?


I am not going to debate the velocity verses large diameter bullet etc., and get into mathematical equations of which is better but the fact remains big bullet equals big hole; whereas if a caliber is not allowed to be used, it is hard to fit it into the equation.

[corbanzo]

I don't think it has anything to do with what they are shooting at, but what they can possibly shoot.  When I'm loading up some .357 mags, and I'm flipping through a manual to locate a load... of course I take a look at the next page and say..... ooooohhhh, look what I can do with .357 max!  I do the same thing with my .454 looking at the .460 page... same thing with my lott looking at the 460 weatherby page... same thing with my .223 looking at the 220 swift page... same thing with... I could keep going, but I think you get the point.
 
The casing you have in the gun is dependent on the shooter.  The bullet and powder you have in that casing is dependent on the quarry. 
 
The problem with the .357 isn't a problem with the .357.  It's the problem that it seems like the "old cartridge" outdated by time so the new bigger better faster cartridge can do so much more like magic.  When the truth is, any "older cartridge," can match any compareable newer cartridge with similar case capacity in loadings.  So my point once again as above... powder and bullet are all the really matter for what you are shooting at. 
 
The one thing I will say that takes away from the .357 mag is that it is a rimmed cartridge designed for use in revolvers.  So the catridge performance in terms of ballistics isn't any better or worse, but it not being the most reliable or efficient in terms of semi-automatic firing definitely does.  As far as defense goes, if I am chasing a perp who has 17 rounds of .40S&W vs my 6 rounds of .357mag....  I am going to be feeling a little undergunned.  In the heat of a firefight, having more room for error(missing), and an easier reload(magazines) becomes very important. 

[Dee]

The 125 grain JHP in 357 magnum revolver still has the best one shot stopping record in L.E. history, and has had for 30+ years, as per FBI statistics on nation wide police shootings. The 357Sig does not count as a 357 magnum because it isn't. I do however think, that the 40S&W will do as well, and in some cases perhaps better with time. All these computer designed hollow point bullet worshipers, that love the minor calibers, need to pay heed to what actually works in the real world, rather than the gun rag ballistic charts.
And no, humans, the thinnest skinned of all animals, aren't any tougher to bring down than they ever were. Errr. Except for the PCP users. Deer and such? Naw!

But isn't that at least partly due to the fact that LE agencies did not allow their officers to carry Government model 1911 pistols?


I am not going to debate the velocity verses large diameter bullet etc., and get into mathematical equations of which is better but the fact remains big bullet equals big hole; whereas if a caliber is not allowed to be used, it is hard to fit it into the equation.

Actually Bob, many agencies in the South DID allow the 45acp to be carried, and I was one whom was allowed to carry one myself, and did, and many agencies STILL carry 45acp. The Texas Dept. of Public Safety i.e. The Highway Patrol Troopers, at one time were offered the 9mm OR the 45acp. Many chose the 45.
In 1977 I was involved in an incident where the perp was using a car for cover, and the 357 magnum 125 gr. jhps in a Model 28 Smith, I carried was a great performer. On June 19, 1978 the following year, I was involved in a simular incident involvin a car and two perps, and the incident although I came out on top, the 45acp did not perform well. I switched back to a 357 magnum the next day. I still have the pictures of both incidents in regards to both cars.
FBI police shooting stats were not kept hodgepodge, but were kept on AVERAGE from year to year, so that an accurate compilation could be made. Also, these records were, and are, also kept in regards to "one shot stops" on perps, regarding caliber, and bullet configuration. I do not know if the FBI still keep stats in the same manner as of late.

[Old Griz]

it's always going to be bullet placement. Everybody has their stories and their favorite caliber. But it all boils down to bullet placement.

[williamlayton]

There are times when speed and penetration are good.
There are times when whallop is good. You give up one to get the other.
IMO--for most folks that CCW--whallop is a better choice.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

big is harder to carry and hide.

[bilmac]

Bob R  The Fackler report analyzed shootings done with all calibers, even down to 32's and the like. They arrived at a percentage of one shot stops if certain criteria were met. The 125 gr 357 was head and shoulders above the others, even the 44 mag was back quite a ways. I wish I still had the book so I could quote the actual numbers.

The problem with the 357 is that it is hard to shoot well. When I started shooting it my PPC scores went down some. I really think that is the reason a lot of folks insist that 45's are better, they really don't like to shoot the 357. I agree with Dee that the 40 S&W will probably prove to be a very good manstopper, it was designed from the beginning with that role in mind, and it is a lot easier for the average Joe to handle plus the advantages of an auto pistol.

[SHOOTALL]

I agree with the 357 mag but even the stats on that lead one to believe in shooting twice as it was only in the 90's percent wise.
The 10mm was built to be a man stopper the 40 was built to copy the LOWER power round made for the 10mm when it was found that many officers at the FBI could not handle the 10mm in full house loads well. WHY HAVE A GUN OFFICERS CAN"T SHOOT WELL ? so in reality the 40 was a comprise not a built from the ground up people stopper , but it seems to be doing well.