Tightening up the slide to frame fit (next task)

[1911crazy]

After watching all the 1911 educational dvd's i could buy, i changed out the barrel on my norc,  fixed my 90's sa from stove piping 1rd per mag.
 
I wanted to learn more about how to tighten up the slide to frame fit.  Thye dvd's I had didn't really cover it in depth.  Someone here steered me towards the AGI 1911 dvd's and they had everything i was looking for.  I have some of the tools but i need to buy more.  I hope after the holidays i'll be tightening up my slide to frame fit on my norc.  I feel that will tighten up my groups even more at 25yds.  Installing the new G.I. barrel with the national match barrel bushing did improve the accuracy already.  She shoots 1 clover leaf per mag if i do my part.  I hope the frame rail and slide work will make it even better. The AGI dvd surely explains very well. It doesn't look that hard to do as long as we tighten it up slowly.
 
Has anyone done or had done the frame rail to slide tightening?

[fatercat]

lay it on concret and hit it with a old rusty hammer. works some of the time.

[Mikey]

Crazy:  I have owned and shot lots of 1911s that had gone through a slide tighteneing, whether it was tightened in a vice or with a ball peen hammer, it didn't seem to matter. 
 
But, you don't really hear of slide tightening much anymore.  Many of the gunsmiths and 1911 fans prefer to go for a better fit between the slide and the barrel, leaving the tolerances between the slide and frame to assure reliability.
 
And don't forget that if the machineing of the slide and frame rails does not match up for full 'face to face' contact on the rails, all tightening will accomplish is to tighten against the mis-match, and you will have to go through that again after the mis-matched rails wear and loosen. 
 
If your Norc cloverleafs, I would leave it alone or assure a better barrel to slide fit.  Good luck, and jmtcw.

[redleg155]

A few months ago, I received back my combat commander (45 ACP) from a full build and 16 month wait.  The gunsmith is experienced and one of the very best.  He did not recommend bending / peening.  He's had great success with welding up and re-cutting the slide/frame fit too.  This welding & refitting is a real art; not only does the refit benefit from extreme skill and hand work, but the weld up needs great caution so it doesn't mess up the hardness of each part.  Instead, and on the gunsmith's recommendation, my gun was sent to accu-rail and had rails installed.  It was absolutely the right choice.  The slide moves like it's on ball bearings and there is no play anywhere in its movement range.  It was built for 100% reliability and has the wonderful habit of putting bullets on top of each other.
 
I was a sceptic about the accu-rail, especially on this high dollar build.  I am fully converted now.  It is, without a doubt, the best slide / frame fitting modification available.
 
redleg

[1911crazy]

I have a 100% lock up on the barrel/bushing fit right now with no barrel spring in both directions.  My barrel/bushing fit is spot on. It can't get any better accuarcy wise and i don't think an expensive barrel would shoot better than my $59 surplus G.I. barrel. I wanted to fit an affordable national match barrel bushing with a surplus barrel to see how good it could shoot.  Shooting 1 clover leaf per mag isn't bad results from cheap parts.
 
The only down fall is the steel the norc's are manufactured from is hard to work with.  The norc's are made from 5100 forged steel this is why there great platforms for doing builds. I'm not sure how easy it will peen.
 
The dvd's do cover the accu-rail system too. I would like to see a top plate system were the rails are one piece as a top plate and screwed to the frame and removable so they can be replaced when they show too much wear.  Then we can use a tool steel like A2 on the top plate and a new forged slide.
 
I understand with the old way of peening being the only thing available at the time.  But with the swaging tools for the frame rails and the tools for doing the slide now it looks like a great way of doing it.  Of course once its all done them lapping them together is next. Once its lubed with moly it won't wear anymore so once its fitted it will last a longtime.
 
I figure if i can get 1 clover leaf per mag with just the NM barrel bushing with a new G.I. 45acp barrel if i tighten up the slide maybe i can get all 8 shots in a tighter group.  I must benchrest it down soild first before any work is started on it.  Its really close to a race 1911 speed / cycling wise now and rock solid dependable.  If i can get the accuracy a tad tighter. By buying all the frame/slide tightening tools i'd like to do it myself and see how far i can go with it and see what degree of better accuracy i can get out of it in the end.
 
The AGI dvd's are awesome and they cover every thing on the 1911 i'm very impressed with it.  The Jerry K dvd and 1911 shop manual and the wilson combat dvd set are ok but the agi dvd's are more educational about it.
 
I been taught many years ago that if a 1911 rattles its a good one by a nam vet.  Of course things change.
 
With welding the metalurgy starts to change ar 400 degrees.

[1911crazy]

lay it on concret and hit it with a old rusty hammer. works some of the time.

Thats the old way of doing it...with a ball peen hammer on the frame rails to peen them down.

[redleg155]

http://www.acc-u-rail.com/
 
The rails come out easily for cleaning, are available as "spares" but, I have never heard of one breaking.  They can be replaced with slighly oversized ones if wear becomes a problem.  I know of several guns over 80,000 rounds that have original rails and original performance.
 
I just finished shooting 1000 rounds in mine, no cleaning, no re-lube (beyond what it started with), and really heated it up during the process - felt like I was going to melt the finish off.  Out of guilty feelings, I'm going to strip and clean it now, but I be it could keep going.  I've shot it with a very loose grip and my normal snug firing grip - absolutely no malfunctions.  That is more a tribute to the gunsmith than the accu rail system, but it does make a statement about the systems reliability.
 
Give them a call - I think it's the best money you can spend if you want consistency in your 1911 platform (beyond bushing fit, barrel lug to slide and link fit - which you've already mentioned). 
 
redleg

[1911crazy]

Lube the rails with a little moly and the wear will be eliminated it also reduces friction too, my guns never leave home without it.
 
My other three 1911's are brand new.  My '05 Auto Ordnance Army WW2 copy just passed the 250rd test and its been flawless the whole time.  My '05 Sprinmgfield Armory G.I. Mil-Spec (as it was called back then) I just test fired it this summer and its been flawless so far too.  My 1990's  series 90 Springfield Armory NM 1911 that sat in the safe most of the time because of it stove piping 1rd per mag i just repaired by tuning the extractor.  It also appears to be operating flawlessly now too.  Both '05 1911's were flawless right out of the box.  I think i hurt the 90's SA by closing the slide on a round in the chamber.  I never knew we had to only feed it from the mag's only.  Now i know better.  I'm starting to feel like the maytag man because everything is running now.  So i'll get back to reloading all winter and tweeking my norc so it can be as good as it can be an army of one....
 
The work on the norc so far is;
 
New GI barrel  from sportsmans guide.
New IAI national match barrel bushing from CDNN investments. 
New FLGR w/18# recoil spring.  This eliminates the spring coiling bind when the stronger recoil spring is used.  If you install the 18# or stronger recoil spring if you cycle the slide by hand slowly you can hear the coiling noise as the spring tries to get out of there.  I also believe the FLGR also eliminates the horizontal right and left side forces on the frame rails too.
I did a ramp on the disconnector path so it won't bump the square edge anymore as the slide cycles.  This improves the accuracy too. This ramp is below the firing pin hole on the slide opposite the disconnector groove.  If you gut the slide and run it by hand you can feel the bump when the disconnector goes under the slide as it cycles.  The little ramp will eliminate this bump.
I installed/ fitted a new adjustable trigger and took out some of the trigger creep.
 
I haven't addressed the sear fitting nor the firing pin retainer plate yet. The sear/trigger feels ok right now but not having the fixture to check and fit them properly i'm not positively sure yet. I feel the frame rail work is more important right now.  Te more i look at the AGI dvd's there's more to check and more tweeking to do.  These dvd's have more than one page on them.
 
Food for thought;
 
I know most guys with experience will say just bend the extractor as long as it holds the empty case in place when we rotate the slide 360 degrees.  If the case stays in place its ok.  Not having the experience with a gun that has a problem with the extractor I purchased all the tools to bend the extractor and a pull gauge setup to check it o i have the proper tention.  I feel if it has a problem with the extractor setting it correctly could be critical.  Once its set right i have eliminated the extactor as being the problem if i still have a problem.  I don't want to guess that its set right. Maybe i'm being too critical but i want it perfect.

[williamlayton]

I agree with much that Mikey said. I have no skills so this is just conversation on my part.
I had aconversation with Vandenberg before he worked up my first gun a good number of years ago. Now he comes from the point of view of a game gun--but the same work improves accuracy.
He likes smoothness over tightness. Parallel fitting and smooth lines and fits. Parts fitted to work not just be forced.
I have never been a fan of tight--Bauer loves tight---TIGHT---They are a Bauer to rack.
I vote on smooth and polished.
Blessings

[1911crazy]

William;   Mikey was spot on when i went thru this in the first place a few years back.  He and a few others said to rework the barrel bushing fit and thats the biggest thing on accuracy.  Now she is shooting great and she functions and cycles plus its accurate and again its not the shooter beater i purchased it for its way better than that.
 
One point is why are all the 1911 slide to frame fit in the front section all seem to have more wear in the front over the rear section.  When i install a new slide to try it to see if there isany difference the new slide is way tighter over the orginal slide.  The frame rails mic .001'' difference in width over the rear section so seeing this makes me think all the wear is mainly on the inside of the slide towards the front of the rails.
 
Now i'm reading on other sites were some have cracked 2 or 3 slides while trying to tighten up the width.  This conserns me but i believe in going slow with it too.  I'd really like to see if i can take out some of the side to side play in the front section and make it as close a fit to the rear it can be.  Before i jump in and rework the complete slide and frame rails.
 
I'm not sure how accurate a standard 1911 can be group wise??  At what group size at 25yds will you accept it??  I realize its the wold ammo thats probably why i'm not shooting tighter groups.  My norc will probably shoot even better with better quality ammo.  Like i said i need to benchrest it with some 200gr swc's next to see how it really shoots.
 
But Mikey and you guys are right the national match barrel bushing fitted so there is a 100% loc up made the biggest difference so far.  The $59 surplus GI barrel helped too.   I just wanted to see how good a very low cost build could shoot group wise.  If i tighten up the front frame rail fit and the groups don't improve then its the cheap barrel right?                        CZY
 
BTW;  My 1990's springer NM series 90 (serial number starts with NM) it appears to have the tightest frame to slide fit i ever seen on a 1911.  She has the optional larger sights from the factory too.  Even my other new '05 SA 1911 doesn't have that tight of a fit on the frame/slide.
 
I also agree we can trade off a tighter slide and reduce the reliability/dependability too.  I think i want to reduce some of the looseness not remove it all together.

[1911crazy]

Update;
 
I'm in the process or measuring my slide and frame finally since my 1911 tool box was MIA.  After spending a little time each day i found it after a week.
 
My frame rails on the width are .738" at one end and .739" at the other.  Right now it appears the slide seems to have most of the wear in the front section.  But i need to double check all my figures before my next move.
 
Right now i'm thinking of closing up the front section of the slide with wise so it will match the rear measurement.  This will be more closer to an orginal fit rather than a rattle one at the front.  I think thats as far as i'm going to go with no frame swaging yet.  I want to shoot it after each move to see if it improves the accuracy.
 
Now what is an acceptable accuracy at 25yds, what would be a good group size?? 
 
My plan right now;
 
Do up a work sheet and repeat all the measurements again with my other caliper.  I purchased a new frankfort $12 caliper and i want to put it up against my mitiyoto caliper to see if its on the money or not.
 
Next i need to shoot my norc the way it is with my 200gr swc reloads to see how accurate it really is with good ammo.  The wolf ammo shoots a clover leaf (3 shots) with every ma full but the rest seem to open up that group.  I think my reloads just may improve it even more.
 
Once this is established i need to go over the work sheet of measurements and plan my next move on tightening up the front part of the slide because it wore or spread more than the rear.
 
Plus I need $200 worth of 1911 tools so after the holidays i can buy them.  Is my plan ok??  Do i need to do anything else?   CZY

[williamlayton]

Your plan is WAY above my ability to do.
I would ask a question though.
Since, like a door in a frame, should you not mate the frame and the slide? I ask because you have need fro them Both to be parallel and square to each other.
Another way to say this is while the door and frame ARE two seperate units--they mus be mated as one unit to work well.
Blessings

[1911crazy]

William;  William there isn't nothing i'm doing that you can't do too. I'm no gunsmith i'm just a car/truck mechanic and a machine builder, lead engineering tech in a R&D lab.  Its all work by hand, with tools and fixtures were needed.   Your right but i ckecked it all over again lastnight  and found the frame rails to be .738'' front and .739'' rear on the width of the rails from the front to the back.  My rails are ok and straight and parallel within .001''.  The up and down vertical movement on the slide to frame fit is very small. Rather than go whole hog(texas talk) and swage the rails and file and stone and lap the slide to the frame which would be the last shot before replacing the frame or slide when it finally wears out i'm thinking since the slide at the rear feels like the orginal GI fit and the front of the slide were the grooves are much looser.  I'm thinking of getting the fixture for the slide stop for squeezing the slide to the same fit/width as the rear is for right now.  I think this would improve the accuracy a lot by the front end being snug not too tight.  Moving it just a little would extend the life of the 1911 too.  I figure the next time its loose if it ever happens on my watch then i will swage it.  Its like having a blow out with a tire and putting on one good used tire.  Maybe using moly to lube it will make the norc outlast my lifetime.
 
Now i did try the new GI slide i got with the kit for my build someday and its tighter on my norc front and rear.  This confirms my knowing the slide has all the wear on it in the front section.
 
I just want to take out a little of the looseness at the front end.   Why go whole hog when i can just squeeze the front end a tad and retune it rather than go whole hog on it without swaging any metal.
 
Being a machine builder/ engineering tech i been thru a lot of fixes in my lifetime and i'm still thinking there is a better way of resizing the rails rather than swaging them the way there doing them now. I have a few ideas but thats later on.  I need to practice on a similair thickness of the steel rails. I think there is a better way of peening it.
 
Now my norc with the CDNN investments IAI #JMA4553B / $12.99 national match barrel bushing and the $59 USGI surplus 1911 barrel and full length guide rod kit with the 18# recoil spring $10 is shooting 1 clover per mag how much better can it get accuracy wise with the front rail fit tightened up just a tad?  I got a decent accuracy for a very low cost/price even shooting the russian wolf 45acp ammo too.  Its got it all going against it with cheap quality parts and  cheap new ammo right?? Now if i switch to my 200gr swc reloads and then tighten up the front rails a tad how much more will it improve?
 
I figure all my work and fitting is perfect so far.  But its the quality of the barrel now is why its accurate and maybe my 100% lock up too.  I wanted to try and test out the low budget parts to really see how good they could be if there fitted correctly. I never expected it to shoot clover leafs at 25yds no matter who shoots it.  I'm not looking for glory i want to see what difference each change makes too.  If anyone ever told me in the past that a cheap surplus USGI barrel can shoot this good i'd say what are you drinking/smoking?  This proves you can do a decent build on a tight budget and still end up with a good shooter. I built it as cheap as i could with new parts. With different shooters getting the same results its the gun and the ammo right?
 
plan now;  Try it with my quality 200gr swc reloads first.
 
Then get the slide groove stop gauge and adjust it to the rear width.  Then squeeze the front of the slide so its the same width as the rear is.  Then the grooves will be parallel front to rear.  Then shoot it with my 200gr swc reloads again.
 
Then if i don't get the results i'm looking for my next move is some sort of swaging on the frame, then lapping the frame to the slide.
 
I want to have a plan laid out with each step and check the results with each little adjustment.
 
I'm going to order the slide groove stop today.    CZY

[williamlayton]

Sir-- you have more skill in the small tool box that you carry in your car than I would have wilth a complete set of every tool that Porter-Cable  makes.
Blessings

[1911crazy]

William/guys;
 
I'm still waiting for my brownells order to arrive.  I think i'm going to close up the slide a tad in the front first without swaging it.  I think i can get away with that right now.

[1911crazy]

I got the tools to tighten up the slide and i got ansy so i tried it with the slide in the vise with the rail stop set for .740'' and the frame rails are .738/.739''.  Any close number i could live with over it rattling loose.  I can't get the slide to close up at all.  This is some tough steel for sure to work with.
 
I need to accept it is what it is and live with it, its the best its going to be with 1 clover leaf per mag i guess.  Now i need to practice more with it. for now anyway.  I do have an idea about knurling the frame rails though.

[williamlayton]

Bigger Hammer?
Blessings

[1911crazy]

William;  I have an 8lb sledge that i could once swing with one arm when splitting firewood  with a wedge but i'm tired now just thinking about it.. I also have a 16lb sledge too for when things get tougher.  No really i have a very big industrial older castiron vise i use.
 
The slide appears to spring right back.  Maybe a little haet would work.  I have to keep it under 400 degrees so the metalurgy won't change.  If i can tighten up the slide just a tad i'm ok with that.
 
I scared to squeeze it past what i need it to go because so many have told me they have cracked so many slides squeezing them. Some say to squeeze it past what i need it to be then it will spring back to exactly what i need it to be.
 
They say take a shot at it but lincoln took two shots and look where it got him?
 

[williamlayton]

Heat is not always HEAT. I would get some sound advice on this. Might I suggest that you give Ironglow a PM---he post GBO regularly and is a blacksmith.
My thoughts are that you can heat it up without HEATING it up but don't do anything that I say about this subject.
Now if it is stainless---well, stainless has memory and will come back to the original in a matter of time.
Blessings

[1911crazy]

Being a welder/fabricator in the test lab i understand youir feelings / thoughts.  I need to step back and dwell on this for a while.  I did try a new USGI slide on it and its very tight like it was new again.  Felling this tightness tells me the frame is ok and the slide took all the wear, most of the looseness is because of the slide.
 
I know I can TIG weld and refit it all too.  I been thinking of getting a TIG and a MIG welding machines for home.  I sold my last two when i retired and i'm sorry i did. I figure two welders and a lathe and milling machine i'm back in business.

[1911crazy]

Well its on the back burner for a while but i'm leaning towards purchasing a new slide for my norc.  Most of the wear appears to be in the slide anyway.  I may pull the norc slide and save it and start all over with a replacement slide, barrel and nm barrel bushing.  I may put about $250 more(maybe) into it and thats it.  I tried my slide from my build kit and its tighter on the norc frame. I'm going to purchase a new slide and save my kit for my build. I'm not too fond of swagging the frame rails because once its done thats it for the frame.  I'd like to save that for a last resort down the road.  I think a new forged 4140ht steel slide will do the trick. But it depends on what barrel i want to use in it a cheap one or a expensive one?

[williamlayton]

I like good barrels from good producers.
Barsto and a couple of others come to mind quickly.
Blessings

[1911crazy]

I plan on saving my orginal norc slide with the new barrel and national match barrel bushing that shoots awesome by keeping it all together.  I want to replace the slide with a new slide, a new barrel and national match barrel bushing. Plus i'd like to fit all the parts all over again to see if lightening strokes twice or i just got lucky the first time.  I'm sure with a tighter slide and the way i fit the barrel/bushing with a 100% loc up in full battery it should be better accuracy wise.
 
Now i can order a 70's 1911 5'' slide with some options too like the front & rear dovetail milled sights, the exhaust port lowered and flared and the slide is forged also.  They run between $160 to a little over $200.  For a total cost into this build its really a cheap one.