Author Topic: Powder Charge Charts  (Read 1919 times)

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Offline Kjosefy

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Powder Charge Charts
« on: December 28, 2011, 07:21:26 PM »
 I have the 2 I have attached here you guys have any others. The reason I ask I loaded a .5oz charge for the first test to be safe but I knew that would be a problem I shoot fireworks with .75 of an oz. in a fiberglass tube with no problems. So I then stepped it up a notch and shot a 1oz charge and it was quite impressive. Just wondering what the max load would be for my cannon 1.5 bore and 12 inches deep. One of the charts indicates like 500 grains which is just over 1oz. the other indicates that 1.5oz may be ok but my length of barrel is shorter. What do you guys think or is there a formula or some other way to calculate how much powder? Also here is a link to the 1oz, firing. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150423857892132

Offline Double D

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2011, 07:42:12 PM »
Go with the graph from Switlik's book. It's from a credible source.  You will find this chart posted by permission of  Matt Switlik in our safe load sticky at the top of the board.  You will also find recommended load formula for bores over 2 inch there.

The other Chart is from  CannonMania.  Teaspoons and tablespoons are for making cookies not loading cannons. Some of the loads are good and some are not.   Forget this chart.  CannonMania has a real credibility problem.

The size of the charge is dictated by the weight of the projectile and the diameter of the bore. 

For guns under 1 inch refer to standard black powder loading data for the appropriate caliber, use the suggest grade of powder for the caliber and reduce the load substantially,  For gun over 1 inch use the Switlik chart a Fg or Cannon grade powder.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2011, 08:07:10 PM »
Go with the graph from Switlik's book. It's from a credible source.  You will find this chart posted by permission of  Matt Switlik in our safe load sticky at the top of the board.  You will also find recommended load formula for bores over 2 inch there.

The other Chart is from  CannonMania.  Teaspoons and tablespoons are for making cookies not loading cannons. Some of the loads are good and some are not.   Forget this chart.  CannonMania has a real credibility problem.

The size of the charge is dictated by the weight of the projectile and the diameter of the bore. 

For guns under 1 inch refer to standard black powder loading data for the appropriate caliber, use the suggest grade of powder for the caliber and reduce the load substantially,  For gun over 1 inch use the Switlik chart a Fg or Cannon grade powder.

How is that really any different from other volumetric BP measures like the Lee set?  Or this:  http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=3590

I'd calibrate my set of spoons against  a scale, but I do that with my regular powder measures too.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironball

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2011, 08:39:26 PM »
Black powder historically has always been measured by volume. This negates the variable of moisture in the powder because of ambient humidity, resulting in more consistant velocity. Weighing charges is a total waste of time. If it makes one feel good, do it. Certainly not needed.
 
BTW, Switlik's chart is a joke. Under 1" he is showing charges that look more like musket loads. 60 grains was standard .58 cal Civil war minieball load.So I guess if your cannon has walls that thin, stick to those.
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Offline Kjosefy

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2011, 10:33:00 PM »
I just found this at dixie


 Dixie recommends the following blank loads for cannons:
 
  • 1/2" bore -- 60 grains FG black powder
    3/4" bore -- 80 grains FG black powder
    1" bore -- 120 grains FG black powder
    1 1/2" bore -- 1 1/2 ounces FG black powder
    2" bore -- 2 ounces FG black powder
    2 1/4" bore -- 2 ounces FG black powder
    2 1/2" bore -- 2 ounces FG black powder
    3" bore -- 4 ounces FG black powder

Offline Double D

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2011, 03:41:16 AM »
Black powder historically has always been measured by volume. This negates the variable of moisture in the powder because of ambient humidity, resulting in more consistant velocity. Weighing charges is a total waste of time. If it makes one feel good, do it. Certainly not needed.
 
BTW, Switlik's chart is a joke. Under 1" he is showing charges that look more like musket loads. 60 grains was standard .58 cal Civil war minieball load.So I guess if your cannon has walls that thin, stick to those.

Leave the insults out of your posts they are not needed. You can disagree with Switlik's chart, but please if you can give us another credible source with  a credible references showing charges for model cannon do so.  The Dixie chart is very conservative and should be fine.

For shooting hand held and shoulder fired  weapon you can get away with much heavier charges.  Model cannons are not held in place; they are free moving shooting devices. 

You can indeed load most model cannons far heavier than shown on Switlik's chart, but to what end.  You will only make more smoke and noise, turn your cannon into a secondary projectile and tear your equipment up.  Your cannon will not shoot better with heavier loads. 

FWIW the  safe recommend loads from N-SSA and AAA are not full service loads either and are substantially less than those loads.

Please join us in the cannon postal shoot and demonstrate that your heavier  loads work better.

Volumetric measuring devices  are used for measuring both smokeless and blackpowder.  The procedure for smokeless powder is to calibrate the measure first by weighing charges and adjusting the the measure to throw the correct weight.

The practice with black powder is to set the scale on adjustable measure and start throwing charges. Or, just use  a fixed measure such as the Lee scoops or other similar brass measures of a design  historically used.   No one ever bothers to calibrate these measures. Different brands and grades of powder have different weights in equal volume.   In small charges you won't see the variables that easily.   Go to the larger charges and the variables show up real quick.    You need to calibrate the volume measure for the type of powder you are using.  That doesn't mean you have weigh every charge, but it helps to  know what charge the measure actually throws.  The instructions that use to come with the Lee scoops had just such instructions.

The shape of the volume measure also affects it accuracy,  There is a reason volume measures are long tubes versus a flat device like spoon.  The small top surface area in a tube allows for better uniformity in filling the  volume than a wide flat device and less variation in volume. Save the teaspoons for making cookies.

For my Pop can mortar I use a cut down 50 BMG cartridge case for a volume of 250 grns of FG.  When I built this measure I learned that it would throw charges from 2-3 grains light to 2-3 grains heavy  from one charge to the next.  Good enough for smoke and fire, not good enough for shooting at Fort Pallet..  I found from my testing that a  5 grains increase over 250 grains  meant an increase in 10 yards of range at 100 yards.  That is a miss on the target.  So for the  large charges I weigh each load.

For my little 50 cal cannon I shot 45 grains of Fg.  I have one measure that has a mark for 45 grains on it.  That measure will throw a charge of GOEX Fg that weighs 45 grains.  The cannon likes that grade and charge.  When I load for that cannon I just set the measure to 45 grains, throw a few charges on the scale to verify it is throwing the right weight and then  start throwing charges once iit is set, then check periodically.

This summer I am going to test some different loads. I willvolumetric load and I will verify the settings by weighing every time I change something and I will verify after each test.

I will say this again, if you have more credible safety standards than what we recommend here, please share them. We are listiening.   If you  wish  to exceed or ignore these safety standards that choice is yours. Only you will have to justify ignoring them if you have an accident.     
 

Offline ironball

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2011, 06:04:52 AM »
DD, sorry I insulted a chart. But you seem dancing all around this issue. On countless threads, we are told the chart and the N-SSA  data represents safe maximum loads, since the authors are, in your opinion, the pre-eminent authority on cannons. Then we see that they are not maximum, that it is still safe to load much heavier? I don't see the point in anyone posting any data, because unlesss it is ultra-conservative, like Dixies, you would immediatley dismiss the source as not being credible. Here we must agree to dissagree. I never said heavier loads were better, just possible. All over this board I see posts saying they would be unsafe. Not true.
 
The heaviest load I see on the N-SSA  chart is 20 ozs. 1-1/4 lb.
 
The United states Government says otherwise. Are they a credible source?
 
 
Never let the people with all the money and the people with all the guns be the same people.

Offline Rickk

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2011, 06:19:14 AM »
One thing I see missing from many charts, even those from "respected" sources, is the lack of mention of grain size and also if the chart is for blank loads, or for projectiles, and if for projectiles there needs to be some hint as to what kind of projectile weight they are talking about.

For instance, in most AAA competitions I have attended the competitors are shooting juice cans filled with concrete - sometimes lead tipped to move the CG forward and make them more stable in flight. If one substitutes a solid lead round ball the weight will be much more.

At the very least, every chart should clearly say "BLANK LOADS" or "LIVE ROUNDS" or something to that affect to be safe.  "Sometimes" (I am referring to one particular reputable source), if one reads the entire chapter that the chart is in, one might be able to take a guess as to what the chart means. If the chart is taken out of context of the rest of the book, doom may result.

Rick

Offline ironball

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2011, 06:22:53 AM »
Rickk I edited my post to include a chart that shows the projectile. :)
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2011, 07:08:26 AM »
Ironball, I'll state the obvious about that Table of Fire.  Those manning the guns were likely to have far more serious concerns about life and limb than their gun going KABOOM! in a way other than intended.  And they were about the business of delivering maximum destructive energy downrange.  We are shooting for fun and sport, not for our lives and the lives of our comrades and family.  Why beat up our gear more than necessary?

Also, take a look at how many of the iron guns had catastrophic failures with those "safe" loads.

I'll agree that standard measuring spoons are not the ideal device for measuring powder, but you can be surprisingly accurate and consistent with them.  Although I wouldn't try them for cannon grade powder.   
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironball

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2011, 07:13:08 AM »
subdjoe, I agree about fun and sport. target loads in any gun are always lighter. I hate to repeat myself, but as I said in the previous post... I never said heavier loads were better, just possible. All over this board I see posts saying they would be unsafe. Not true.
 
Never let the people with all the money and the people with all the guns be the same people.

Offline Double D

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2011, 10:07:05 AM »
You may insult the chart and think that is fine but why. There is no need for it, it is nothing but flame as you are really insulting the source.   Leave the insults and cheap shots out, it serves no purpose to discussion, leave that to the politicians.  It's fine to be skeptical. Ask questions, voice you skepticism.  Point to any other credible source too counter the source.  But leave insults out.

You bring out a good point about table of fires exceeding these conservative loads.

Rick points out a real problem  of relying on all these charts---what powders are they talking about especially when dealing with the orignal load charts. 

The N-SSA and AAA specify the type and grade powders they are referring to.  They make recommendations about the suggested safe maximum loads using the powders they specify.   As I am sure you know Switlik was behind the development of these recommendation based on his pressure gun work.  One of the regulars here, Artilleryman assisted in the pressure gun work.  Switlik used modern made black powders for the tests.  His test found that equal service loads of Cannon grade and Fg resulted in a 40% increase in pressure in the Fg loads over the cannon grade loads.

Switlik also produce the small gun table and recommends nothing finer than Fg for those loads.  You will find all this information on his book.

You can get a copy of Switlik's pressure studies frm him at his website.

As to using the Original tables of fire.  They may be valid as guides for maximum full service loads for the cannon they were designed for, at  the ranges suggested,  with the same grade of powder with the same burn rate as the original powders and with the same projectiles as the charts were made for. 

You cannot safely interchange another grade of powder or different caliber with those tables  .  Do you know what grades and burn rate of powders the charts are for? 

Yes heavier loads are possible but there just to many variables to make a  blanket endorsement .  The heavier loads can be safely loaded and shot.  The folks who shoot every year at Grayling prove that.  The heavier loads are for the advanced student who understand differences in cannon construction, powder dynamics and projectile .  If someone has to ask for a maximum load, that question by it self says the person is not knowledgeable.

Those heavier loads especially in smaller cannons are excessively violent in recoil and will loosen and break  small carriages. The small guns can be come projectiles themselves. Is that safe? Don't think so.   

Unless and until some better more credible source come along in the future  I will continue to recommend the safety standards of the the AAA and or  N-SSA uncluding their recommended safe loads.  I know the source of their load data. 

   


Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: Powder Charge Charts
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2011, 06:52:14 PM »
I  think the biggest point made here is that there are a lot more variables in this game than are sometimes known.  And sometimes they are unknowable.  I will purposely not giving details about the bore size or gun composition when giving load examples because I know that somewhere, somehow, someone may take a cursory look at this post and decide that this charge is "ok" to use in his "similar" gun.  That said, I have had larger bore guns zeroed in at 6 ft tall targets at 200 yards and then switched to a different brand of powder with the same grain and weight charge only to have the same type of projectile bounce half way to the mark repeatedly.  I think Elephant brand is out of business now.   

Anyone who puts this data (load charts etc.) together for public consumption knows 2 things. 1 It took them a lifetime to know what they know and that they still don't know enough. 2 Most people will never spend the time to learn what they really need to know, and that they will look at a chart and think they know enough. 

These charts and graphs are a starting point (or the end all for the not so bright).  If you want to find out what the maximum charge is for your gun, you need to do some serious research, experimentation, and have a lifetime commitment. 

Yes, there could be better, more accurate analysis with maximum charges based on weight of the projectile, windage, obturation, brand of powder, grain of powder, date the powder was made, name of the man working at the factory that day, and a million other variables.  Many people (like the ones who make these charts available) make an effort to research to this extent, and they share it with those who have similar dedication, but don't expect them to put it all out in the universe so that someone can kill himself (or worse, someone smarter) with some snippet they snatched off the internet.

For those who keep begging for the "maximum load", we'll know they've found it when they stop asking.