Author Topic: .357 Mag chamber (Read 1446 times)

THSkeer · « **on:** January 06, 2012, 03:36:41 AM »

My .357 Mag is VERY picky about ammo.... I have tried about 10 types and groups go from an inch to 4 inches at 50 yards! I am waiting my turn for the Max reamer (boy I hope that PM went through) and decided to do a little check this morning.

I took a loaded MAX round and slowly slid it into the Mag chamber. Well it fit all the way until the rim touched the extractor! Talk about freebore! I did not have time to smoke the round to see if it was bullet into lands or case into leade that finally stopped progress, but either way I was floored. The Max brass is about 3 tenths of an inch longer than the Mag, so this real simple fit test shows the Mag chamber is about 2 tenths too deep. I could probably use 360 DW brass right now! I am going to do a cerrosafe cast this weekend to get better measurements, but this cant be 'normal' for these barrels...... or is it?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 06, 2012, 06:38:27 AM »

It is and it's been discussed a lot, it's also normal for other brands like TCs.

And I did get the PM, you're two down the list at the time.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,125780.msg1098446320.html#msg1098446320

yukondog · « **Reply #2 on:** January 06, 2012, 10:16:00 AM »

It's the norm. Mine would chamber and shoot 360 fine just the the way it was. When I took it to max I think I only had to turn it 5 or 6 times and it was there. Enjoy the max.

twoshooter · « **Reply #3 on:** January 06, 2012, 02:20:58 PM »

They are kinda strange that way. My 30/30 has an extremely short throat, I cannot get close to OAL with many bullets before they hit the lands, yet I can just barely seat my 280's our far enough to touch. I don't think they have any really firm QC standards, or at least precise and repeatable onesl

cwlongshot · « **Reply #4 on:** January 06, 2012, 03:50:25 PM »

As the guys said long chambers is comon place, altho I don't remember too many completely chambering a maxi...

Most guys who have 360 brass shot it ust fine. I haven't read of a single problem shooting 360DW from a stock H&R 357 Mag. BUT resist the urge to drop the hammer on the maxi... At least until about 5 minutes after getting the reamer. Five minutes because it will likely take you longer to unpackage and clean the reamer than it will to ream the chamber to maxi.....

I was going to suggest a chamber cast. It will be interisting to see what you actually have...

CW

demented · « **Reply #5 on:** January 06, 2012, 03:52:32 PM »

Twoshooter, my 30-30 has an extremely long throat. I wonder how there is so much variation with these rifles, especially considering the tolerances possible with CNC manufacturing.

twoshooter · « **Reply #6 on:** January 07, 2012, 02:53:05 PM »

I wonder that also. The 125 gr PSP in my 30/30 I am loading to 2.485 OAL, considerably deeper than than the cannalure. I have to seat them .045 deeper than in my 30/30 contender barrel. Meanwhile, my 280 Rem I have to seat 150 gr spire points out to 3.330 to hit the lands, they recommend them at 3.280. The cannalures are way out of the case. I have no clue. I cannot see a pattern or rationale, like Weatherbys uses to all have a lot of freebore, others not so much, but ALL of them were either long or short etc, but the comments here do not support that in handis.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2012, 03:59:18 AM »

This has been said before, but the biggest improvement to your Maxi rechamber will probably the critical throat area. ALSO (WARNING, sirens going off, etc.) dont go any deeper than you have to, it is quite common to be over-enthused and make the rim seat too deep! Personally, I dont even want the reamer cutters to touch the rimseat. If it is proper to start with dont go there because only a few thou. deeper cut can really mess it up.

togojeff · « **Reply #8 on:** January 09, 2012, 11:48:51 AM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on January 08, 2012, 03:59:18 AM

This has been said before, but the biggest improvement to your Maxi rechamber will probably the critical throat area. ALSO (WARNING, sirens going off, etc.) dont go any deeper than you have to, it is quite common to be over-enthused and make the rim seat too deep! Personally, I dont even want the reamer cutters to touch the rimseat. If it is proper to start with dont go there because only a few thou. deeper cut can really mess it up.

x2

Sixgun · « **Reply #9 on:** January 09, 2012, 05:59:52 PM »

Thanks for all the feedback. I did put in a PM and am now in line for the reamer.

This will not be my first experience with the Max. I have a factory 10inch barrel in the max and am really impressed with the performance but not the accuracy. Idaho just made it legal to use straight wall pistol cartridges in a pistol in the short range hunt areas. That includes the islands on the Snake River and all of the Boise River, down stream from Boise to the snake. There are loads of mule deer in these areas and now I can use my contender to hunt them.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #10 on:** January 10, 2012, 05:23:16 AM »

Thanks for posting this question, you saved me some money and aggravation. I was about to send the wife's .243 to have a .357 barrel fitted but not after reading this. I had a .357 some years ago with that horrible excuse for a chamber and didn't want another but I was guessing they surely must have fixed the problem by now, ha, guess again.
The photo is of chamber casts of the factory .357 mag at top and below is after reaming to .357 Max. You can see that the factory chamber doesn't really have a throat at all, just a long gradual taper from case diameter down to bullet diameter. All the Max reamer does is to extend the cylindrical portion a bit and form a shoulder into the long taper, so even the Max reamer does not entirely clean up the sloppy factory chamber.
Some people refer to this as "freebore" but it really is "free-chamber". A freebore just removes the lands and forms a section of groove diameter bore in which the bullet is guided straight and centered it just is not spun. That's very different from an extra long chamber in which the bullet can wobble and tilt out of line and off center and gas blows by the bullet base. After my experience with that .357 I said "no more H&Rs" but I was hoping Marlin had straightened things out, guess not. The photo is on a 1/4 inch grid.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2012, 05:34:08 AM »

Our PTG reamers also cut a 6º ramp to the rifling, read the review at Midway, and the hundreds of reviews from happy Maxi owners here, it shoots the shorter Spcl and Mag rounds excellent as well.

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/734226/ptg-solid-pilot-chamber-finish-reamer-357-maximum

coyotejoe · « **Reply #12 on:** January 10, 2012, 08:47:31 AM »

Sorry to say mine didn't shoot anything worth a crap, neither before nor after rechambering.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** January 10, 2012, 09:01:22 AM »

Apparently ya didn't use the right reamer, or the barrel was just bad or poorly fitted to begin with, I know of over 90 members that have used this reamer because I sent it to em, no one has been unhappy with the results, on the contrary, they've been extremely pleased with the results. As far as I can tell, there's no SAAMI standard for a 357mag rifle barrel, just revolvers, the rifle isn't listed in the manual I have any way.

Tim

coyotejoe · « **Reply #14 on:** January 10, 2012, 11:40:02 AM »

Yep, the bore was crooked, it looked centered at the original muzzle but when I cut it back to 16" it was very noticeably off center at that point.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 10, 2012, 11:53:46 AM »

When C.E. Harris worked at Ruger he had opportunity to shoot many No.1s in .357 and many did not shoot all that well. He and a bud gunsmith made up a reamer that improved primarily the throat (IIRC) and a big improvement in accuracy. What ever Ruger had used as a reamer wasnt that good either!.......so, did H&R use the same type? No matter, given a good barrel and a good frame mount, the rechamber with this reamer has proven effective.
FWIW, if I had a barrel that I couldnt get acceptable accuracy with the factory chambering I would have options, beginning with sending it back. If I want to 'try to fix it on my own' I know that is most likely going to void them accepting liability for it; my choice. Sometimes its a flip of the coin, and Ive made few bad calls.........doesnt mean they are all 'bad'.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #16 on:** January 10, 2012, 12:22:01 PM »

CJ,
I am not doubting the bad barrel, but as a general observation, I find it odd that as popular as the 357 mag is here and how well liked it is that there is no talk of bad chambers or guns that don't shoot well...

I have herd of problems with the #1 and had a customer who had to have one. I think he had three before getting one he was happy with. Being I am in CT and Ruger is about 30 Minutes away in South Port. I was at the factory regularly. We had a number of good customers/friends working at every gun maker in the state. At least one of use where in Ruger, Marlin, Charter Arms and Mossberg factories at least once a month.

Anyhow, I have one orig 357Maxi barrel and one 357 mag re-chambered to maxi. The orig Maxi shot great as a FL. I am working on it to get it back to its previous glory. The FL Mag turned Max is a problem child for me. BUT I have been chasing lock up issues so I am FAR from throwing in the towel....

CW

coyotejoe · « **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2012, 08:21:37 AM »

well if you judge by this site H&R's are the worlds best, but that has not been my experience at all and that is why I seldom visit here. In addition to the .357 with a crooked bore I have an old Shikari .45/70 with a crooked bore, to get on paper the front sight is noticably off center to the left while the rear peep is almost totally out of it's slot to the right. The wife's .243 featherlight won't do better than 2 1/2 moa with a variety of loads. I and a buddy each got new Buffalo Classics in .45 Colt. He put a Williams peep on his and I scoped mine. We both tried out a wide range of loads and agreed that 2 1/2" at 50 yards was about the best they would do. I also had one in 38/55 with the oversize bore and chamber too tight to accept oversize bullets. I reamed the chamber and got that one to shoot pretty decent after much searching to find a bullet mold large enough.
I realize you can get a good gun or a lemon in any brand but my average with H&R has been so poor that I will never be tempted to try another.

Lon371 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 12, 2012, 09:05:47 AM »

I will say my Mag to Maxi was a good decision. It shot good in Magnum, it shoots better as a Max. So much so that my freezer is full of deer this year. My H&R .44 also add a deer. It will soon become a Super Mag. I have a .223 H&R that shoots alot better than I do. My NEF 20ga shorty will shoot an easy 2" at 50(wanna trade for your 243

). I would like to have some nicer guns. But when these proved to be hunters, I gave up on going fancy

Lonny

cwlongshot · « **Reply #19 on:** January 12, 2012, 12:21:12 PM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on January 12, 2012, 08:21:37 AM

well if you judge by this site H&R's are the worlds best, but that has not been my experience at all and that is why I seldom visit here. In addition to the .357 with a crooked bore I have an old Shikari .45/70 with a crooked bore, to get on paper the front sight is noticably off center to the left while the rear peep is almost totally out of it's slot to the right. The wife's .243 featherlight won't do better than 2 1/2 moa with a variety of loads. I and a buddy each got new Buffalo Classics in .45 Colt. He put a Williams peep on his and I scoped mine. We both tried out a wide range of loads and agreed that 2 1/2" at 50 yards was about the best they would do. I also had one in 38/55 with the oversize bore and chamber too tight to accept oversize bullets. I reamed the chamber and got that one to shoot pretty decent after much searching to find a bullet mold large enough.
I realize you can get a good gun or a lemon in any brand but my average with H&R has been so poor that I will never be tempted to try another.

I kinda figured that... I don't say that to be sarcastic and certainly not to belittle your problems. I know full well these are cheaply made firearms. Ones that certainly have there share of problems, some would say more than should be.
My point is its human nature to complain and when wronged, most all people will tell everyone they can about these problems. We do hear some such as your self, but by and large the problems people operational errors or are easy fixes. Now some will simply say they spend hard earned dollars and do not want or expect problems at all. I can understand this line of thinking very well.

Your issues where, IMHO wxtream and the word "lemon" comes to mind. Good candidates for return to the factory.

Some time back, Grampa Mike started a thread asking how many H&Rs do people own. It has been tickied and remains a popular thread. As of Nov 2010:

Quote

Speaking to the numbers of H&Rs we see here we have a thread on what people own...
UPDATE: 03 November 2010 @ 1419

799 Handi-Holics.

2,568 Complete Guns.

322 Extra Barrels.

14 Extra Frames.

3.4 per Handi-Holic

Again, That was from Nov of 2010, currently there are five more pages and over one years time. Suffice it to say we do cover quite a large number of these rifles...

So when I mention buy and large your kind of problems are not common to us, you know why I/we can say that.

I am truly sorry to read of the bad barrels, as a matter of fact, I cannot say with certainly I would be as enthusiastic about the H&R if I had had those experiences early on... $:-\$

CW

twoshooter · « **Reply #20 on:** January 12, 2012, 01:56:51 PM »

While I have not had stellar performance out of my Handi's, some here have certainly posted some outstanding groups. Unlike Mick Jagger however, I can and DO get some satisfaction. I have a great Savage varmint rifle, I can hit a beer can at over 500 yards. Only, I no longer own enough land to get 500 yards from anything, and there are no large colonies of feral beer cans threatening me. I never take it off the shelf. I gave my 22 mag to my Grandson for Christmas. That leaves me with my new go to gun for everything- a Hornet barrel on a case hardened SB1 frame with a blonde stock and schnabel fore end. It will hit a quarter at 75 yards reliably. My 500 Smith will hit a half dollar. I now load them for the same price as my 22 mag ammo.

I think all of mine will stay under 2" at 100 yards, even the recalcitrant 280. I really cant complain at all, I have killed deer with the 357 mag, 30/30, 444, 45/70, and 500, from distances of 35 t0 125 yards. My only change really would have been getting a shorty or two. I love em.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 13, 2012, 04:55:16 AM »

I dont expect this platform design to be a gnats eye target gun (for a ne plus ultra .22 LR match rifle I go to my BSA Martini International MkIII c/w a 20X scope), so I know what accuracy is and I can tell when Im the issue of the day (often, and probably the biggest contributor to inaccuracy on any day). I have also reconsidered my 'needs' with different guns, and these have given me more than a fair amount of satisfaction, too. But I do hate sights hanging off one side or the other. So, Im curious, on that one with the sights hanging off both ways, is the primer anywhere near a center strike, and how far off center is the hole at the muzzle?

Ranger J · « **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2012, 05:16:54 AM »

I gave up on my .357 barrel as everything I loaded for it was all over the place at 50 yds. I know it had a long chamber as I loaded a 180 gr. bullet as far out as I could and it easily chambered. I would have liked to have it reamed out to Max but am personally not handy with this thing and usually end up with a Bubba job when I try. I could not find a competent gun smith in my area so I passed the barrel on to another. On the other hand my 45/70 shoots everything well and so does my 'new model' 44. The earlier 44 I once had was another thing.

It too was passed on to another.

RJ

coyotejoe · « **Reply #23 on:** January 13, 2012, 05:31:57 AM »

The 45/70 barrel appears straight looking down the outside and the bore is centered at both ends. The .357 barrel also appeared centered at both original ends but was very much off center when cut shorter. The .357 was fired only with a scope do I don't know how much offset iron sights would have required on that one. The 45/70 is so crooked that looking along the sights shows the line of sight passing totally to the right of the hammer but primer indents are reasonably well centered. Apparently they just don't bother to straighten the bore before turning the outside diameter to final contour.
I really didn't jump in here to start an arguement. I haven't visited the H&R forum in several years. I had been thinking of getting a .357 carbine and a new barrel for the wife's H&R seemed like an easy way to get there. I really just wanted to check on availablity and current wait times when I saw "357" and checked it out. I know from past experience here that people on this forum will defend and excuse H&R till the cows come home. The last I will say on this subject is that I and several friends have had enough of them and none of us want any more. Adios.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2012, 06:43:25 AM »

Well......

....,bye

cwlongshot · « **Reply #25 on:** January 13, 2012, 09:05:29 AM »

No arguments from me friend. as I said, I am truly sorry for your problems!!

I am also glad you posted as I said we don't hear many such obvious problems.

There is no reason I can see for you to have to leave or stay away. I'm sure you have plenty to offer and comment on even if you don't own or care to own any more handis.

CW