I have Settled on a Glock 17

[vacek]

After a lot of years with a lot of great handguns I have settled on the Glock 17 as my "always with me" handgun.  I like the balance, fit, durability and accuracy.  I still have my Security 6 3" 357; had a 357 Blackhawk, had a 45 Colt Vaquero; still have a BlackHawk 45 Colt and last but not least a Ruger Mark 2....
 
But the Glock 17 wins.  For small game foraging I use a Lee 125 Grain Truncated Cone bullet cast with wheelweights and dropped in cold water.  With 3.7 grains of W231 I have a load that is relatively quiet, very accurate at 50+ feet for small game.  Downside, it is downloaded to the point that it will not cycle, but for small game.... I don't care.
 
For self-defense, and if nothing else is available for deer sized game, the commercial 9mm+ defense loads are more than adequate.... Not that I  plan on hunting large game with 9mm but it would certainly do in a pinch.
 
For my old eyes I have a fixed aperature site which does wonders, and a Lone Wolf Match Barrel.
 
 
 
 

[keith44]

vacek,


a well thought out plan, so long as the wrong ammo is not in the gun at the time it is needed.  Practice with both loads and you will likely be satisfied.

[vacek]

The small game cast cartridges will be loaded one at a time.  They don't cycle so what the heck.  Load'm as you need'm.
 
Oh...and my apologies. I guess the barrel length on the Security 6 is 2.74" and not 3.  Dang, one just doesn't get over that tendency to overestimate barrel length even when they get to be 60 years.   

[keith44]

inaccurate tube and pipe estimations / over statements are not just a 60's thing 

[SHOOTALL]

I have never been a Glock fan and lack a couple of years before  being 60 have to agree but my gun is a G-20 . FMJ's for small game (Bwetter to trap or fish if time permits to hold down noise). For soical events and hunting the factory SD ammo will work well. I got my gun for hunting on rain and snow days and as a truck gun . It seemed to be a gun that could get scratched or soaked and not hurt the usefulness , hey it's just a Glock. Guess I got used to it or something now ........

[vacek]

Those Glocks are downright rugged, and a mechanical idiot like myself can even take it down and clean it then get it back together.  That was one of the big reasons not going with my Ruger Mark 2 which I really like. Although I have taken jackrabbits at 75 yards with it,  I honestly can't get the thing back together once disassembled.  This is even after my gunsmith has showed me how to several times ( at $10/reassembly).  Also a little underpowered for defence, etc.  My Blackhawk 45 Colt is really sweet and I have developed several loads (including a shot load) but I get tired lugging it around everywhere.  I can stick the Glock in my back pocket if I don't have my holster handy... no problem. 

[Couger]

After a lot of years with a lot of great handguns I have settled on the Glock 17 as my "always with me" handgun.  I like the balance, fit, durability and accuracy.  I still have my Security 6 3" 357; had a 357 Blackhawk, had a 45 Colt Vaquero; still have a BlackHawk 45 Colt and last but not least a Ruger Mark 2....
 
But the Glock 17 wins ......

Good for you Vacek!  NOTHING wrong with a  Glock!   
 
Personally I prefer the sightly smaller G19 and G23 versions, and have both of them.
 
Also WW231 (and HP38) is great propellent to reload with.      

[vacek]

Thanks Couger.
 
Here are my thoughts on a "survival gun".  I know tons have been written on this subject all over the internet.  As far as I am concerned the first and most important criteria is "what are you the most accurate shooting?".  Accurate and well placed shots covers a lot of issues like: carrying a lot of extra ammo; how powerful; where will you be and what will you be shooting at.  All of those are trumped by comfort and skill.  If not, I don't think our ancestors would have faired all that well with their "primitive" weapons.  They were very adept at what they had and that is the trump card.

[SHOOTALL]

great points , would add that those alive today came from the best hunters survivers . That said one must wonder about some.........

[Couger]

ADDED:  Been reading (again) my copy of Mel Tappin's "Survival Guns", esp his chapter on handguns.
 
 
 
Tappin spent a lot of time (a whole chapter) on the ins and outs on handguns, namely working guns (revolvers) and defensive or combat guns (semiautos).
 
Three points Tappin made included how a wheelgun can loaded with two snake shot rounds, two small game rounds even with wadcutters, and two bear loads and still be 100% reliable 100% of the time!
 
Tappin also pointed out that (defensive) "autos" need to have 'quality' ammo every time to shoot reliably 100% of the time, but I think he would have lauded Vacek's "program" if an accomplished shooter understood that scrounging/foraging/small game rounds (semiauto ammo) need to be fired in singleshot mode.
 
Also, Tappin also stated he thought low or target powered rounds (like .38 wadcutters) are often BETTER small game fodder than .22RF's, too!
 
Tappin doesn't say much in his book I haven't already heard at one time or other, but I believe Tappin was credited with being first to write such a well-accepted, "acredited" book!
 
My copy is a revised, republished copy but if one has the opportunity to pick up one, its well worth the read and small investment.     Of course other (similar) books are also available and perhaps more up to date, esp Boston T. Party is one of my favorites.

[SHOOTALL]

Guns and survival . The gun you tote everyday may be the only gun you will have in a survival situation . If you are away from home and blocked from return what you got with you may be all you will have. It makes things like mouse guns etc worth rethinking. It also makes things like extra ammo worth having . And incase you can get to your vehicle it makes a stash of supplies and extra gun worth the effort. To that end I got a police trade in 17 to test , it is well worn and beat up. the bbl surface is pitted . It shoots fine . I wanted to see how Glocks hold up to abuse and this one saved me alot of waiting  it now stays in the truck alot more abuse  . But it now serves double duty.

[vacek]

There is a lot of good common sense going on here now. 
 
I also read a lot of Mel Tappan's work and the only thing I really question today is the actual utility of shot loads in a pistol.  Don't get me wrong, I love these things and they are fun to load and to shoot.  However, I grew up in the Texas Panhandle and had a lot of run-ins with rattlesnakes and I did kill a lot of them with bird shot, etc.  However,  I never really needed the shot to do the job.  I have killed as many rattlesnakes with a large stick as with a gun (although finding a stick in the Texas Panhandle is harder than finding the snake  . 
 
They are not hard to kill.  I have also twice been hit with a strike but both times the fangs didn't get through the Levi's + boots. (Tangential, back in the 70's when double knit pants were in vogue, including those that looked like denim, my dad and I were out moving cattle.  He was opening a fence gate when he was struck by a prairie rattler.  The fangs got caught up in the double knits.  I apologized later, but it was funny as all get out watching him try to shake that rattler off.  Finally got it off and by the time I quit laughing and we got out the rifle we couldn't locate the sucker.  He might actually still be airborne as hard as dad was shaking.  Regardless, he started packing his pistol after that).... I digress......
 
  If you can't hit a snake up close with your pistol (without shot) then (a) you need to practice; and (b) if the snake isn't around property where it can be dangerous, let it be.
 
Shoot All, you are going to have a difficult time making the 17 not work.  Those suckers are just plain tough.

[SHOOTALL]

I agree but time will tell , mine is in rough shape but working.
As for snake shot , rabbit , bird etc up close ? A sick or starving man might not be so steady and the pattern might help.

[vacek]

Shoot All,
 
Very good point and on reflection my comment was off the mark.  I think  back now that Ed Harris developed a shot load for the 45 ACP on the request of some friends in the Airforce as a survival cartridge for their 1911's.  Basically (if I remember correctly) he used a fast powder like Bullseye and between the powder and shot had an .45 gas check with the cup facing forward to the cartridge mouth.  Next came the shot followed by another gas check with the cup facing the back of the cartridge.  This gas check was very near the cartridge mouth with a slight crimp.  I don't remember whether or not they cycled. 
 
Given that the shot spread in a rifled pistol is about 1" per 1 yard then the effective range was probably around 10 yards with the 45 ACP.  There is a lot of small game (rabbits, birds, rodents) opportunity within that range.  I think when I get a little time I will try to make some of my own 9mm shotshells with the understanding that their effective range will most likely be less than 7 yards.  I know I can buy CCI's but am now curious about this.  I have made shot shells as described above for my 45 Colt and they worked quite well.

[SHOOTALL]

I have loaded the speer shot cups for 38 and 44 . They work well. I have used and still have a few Rem shot loads for the 45 acp they work but not as well as the CCi loads and they don'y cycle the action . The CCI loads for 9mm , 40 S&W or 45 ACP do not cycle either. I have tried most of the CCI loads and find they work OK . I do like to load my own and have used from #7.5 shot to #1 buck  in the cups. The buck is about useless in use but works as far as fireing. A load of #7.5 in a 45 Colt ( note they were good in the 44 so I assume they would be good in a 45 Colt since I find that true with other loads the two can share) ( I do use 45 Colt CCI loads but not sure of the shot size)or 44 mag is a good load . I have killed snakes , frogs and rats with ease and find the 38 in a J frame revolver shoots snakes better than a 410 ferringer I had. Patteren held together longer in the 38. I always carry a few shot rounds for ny gun if possible. For years and today still I carry an old plastic AMMO WALLET with 6 shot cart. and the rest either 38 spl or 357 mad SD loads. Sorta a varity travel pack 

[Ranger99]

hard to beat the ol' ammo wallet!


you're the only other soul i've ever
encountered that uses 'em.


have some old "flambeau pocket pack"
ammo wallets too. thicker material that
the mtm's and a real hinge. these are 30+
years old. can't find 'em anymore.