Dutch model cannons 1761

[cannonmn]

The two cannons shown in the slideshow are about 20 in. long and weigh about 20 lbs.  One is a bit lighter and slimmer than  the other.  Peter Seest was the head of the Amsterdam town foundry when these were cast.  One of his biggest customers was the Dutch East India Company.  As far as I know he didn't cast any full-sized cannons for the VOC in 1761, because none have been found with that date.  He was very busy from 1764 on because many cannons of his with such dates on them are known.  In fact I'm guessing many dozens of bronze swivels with his name survive, so his total output may have been many hundreds or more.  VOC used swivels of 1/2, 3/4, and 1 pounder caliber but I haven't checked to see if Seest cast all 3 sizes or not. 
 
These two, as far as I can tell, are the only known cannon models by Peter Seest.  The "ownership" mark is normally on the breech of the gun, and these have an "OH" monogram in that area.  My research on the VOC revealed that their headquarters was a large building in Amsterdam known as the East India House, or in Dutch something like "Ostindische Huis."  The "OH" monogram on the breech apparently indicates that these cannons were once the property of the VOC headquarters.  Seest may have cast them as salesman's samples to give te VOC officials various models to choose from, but I'm only guessing now.  I don't know why the heavier model (marked B in the data table in the slideshow) has the Amsterdam town mark (proofmark) on the breech and the lighter one does not.
 
Use password "attack" to view slideshow.
 
http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/Forums61%20120114/Seest%20Pair/?albumview=slideshow

[Artilleryman]

Maybe they were intended to be signal guns rather than salesman sample.

[flagman1776]

Man, they are beautiful!  I'd love to have them on a swivel.

[cannonmn]

The best book in existence on Dutch cannons (perhaps one of the only ones?) is THE VISSER COLLECTION by Rudi Roth. The late Henk Visser was a hugely wealthy arms dealer from the Netherlands who accumulated one of the world's largest private arms collections, including cannons. He preferred Dutch cannons, and one purchase from I think Indonesia, he got a warehouse full of VOC ordnance, I think over 100 pieces, mostly various sizes of swivel guns. The book depicts all of the non-duplicate Dutch cannons and lists the remainder, with detailed tabulations of measurements, etc. Roth has further classified them by type and subtype, much of which it appears he had to reconstruct from archival documents. I think due to his book, Dutch ordnance has gone from being "least understood" of the world's ordnance to now among the best understood. Roth is a talented draftsman and included in the book full-page, fully-dimensioned drawings of each non-duplicate cannon in the Visser collection.
--------------------------------
The Visser Collection: Ordnance: cannon, mortars, swivel-guns, muzzle- and breech-loaders
Volume 2 of The Visser Collection: Arms of the Netherlands in the Collection of H.L. Visser, J. P. Puype
Authors J. P. Puype, R. Roth
Publisher Waanders Publishers, 1996
ISBN 9040098816, 9789040098819

[Cannoneer]

cannonmn,

Those are handsome barrels, and your guessing that they could be models made to demonstrate the maker's skill, seems reasonable to me.

Here are 4 photos of a barrel that was up for sale/auction on a couple of sites some years ago. On eBay it was described as a Dutch bronze signal gun made c.1745, 28'' long, with a 1'' bore. Do you have any opinions that you'd care to share on this one?









 

[cannonmn]

Tx for pix, interesting.  I'll just throw out some observations without making a judgment of any kind because all pix but one are too distant to see the thing well enough.
 
-Real patina or not?  Looks "iffy" to me.
-Most all Dutch cannons this size and larger had some form of ownership mark cast or engraved into the breech, this one is bare in that area
-Need a much closer look at the dolphins, they look a bit too small and not exactly the right style; Dutch dolphins were pretty consistent from one maker to the next, both in style and their size relative to the cannon.  Not sure those dolphins were cast on, "applied" dolphins are always bad news (fake etc.)  Not to mention that more often than  not Dutch cannons in this size range often lack dolphins.  None of the Dutch swivels by any maker had dolphins during the 18th C.  These dolphins are too skinny and arched too high to compare favorably to the real Dutch dolphins I've seen.  If I had to assess this in person, I'd start with the dolphins, and if they didn't pass, I'm done, the piece isn't right.
-Carriage looks like an original Strong or Brown salute gun carriage, married to that tube.
-Vent field contours (diamond pattern etc.) aren't as sharply-defined as on most other Dutch cannons.
-Complete markings on basering should be compared with marks on other Crans cannons shown in the book "The Visser Collection."

[Cannoneer]

Thanks for the review. Not that I know much of anything about these small Dutch barrels, but the base ring looked promising, and it appears to be a quality casting; but as you said, the other pics were taken at a distance, and hazy as well. Usually (but not always) when an eBay seller is asking a high price ($5,000.00 startig bid in this case) for what they believe to be the genuine article, they tend to include as many clear close-ups as possible. I would also like to get a good view of the dolphins, and the Marsilly carriage certainly isn't an historically accurate mount for that barrel.

[RocklockI]

My rendition of the Lovrens 1660 VOC Gun 2.5 lber ,I'm sure most here have seen this photo B4.
This gun is shown in the Visser Collection book ,towards the back of the book .

This is a VOC gun as you can see on the pic. it was cast in Batavia (Tinnian Island IIRC)

These next two show typical dolfins ,mine which is the positive to make a mold with ,and the print from the book .

 This is a photo from The Visser collection

 
This last one is my line drawing to scale this is what I worked off of .

I didn't care for the origanal crest so I made my own .

It is my opinion this is not a VOC gun .
VOC lover Gary

[Cannoneer]

Gary,
I may be wrong on this, but I believe that any artillery piece that was manufactured for the Dutch East India Company, would be marked as such on the barrel.

[cannonmn]

Found the answer to Cannoneer's question about the "rightness" of the Crans 1745 cannon on the Strong-salute gun-type carriage.  It is indeed "right."  It is pictured in a very old US Cartridge Co. catalog.  The present owner posted better pix of it.  The pix Cannoneer had did not show, for example, the Amsterdam town mark, but the owner's photos do show that, clearly.
 
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14900

[Cannoneer]

Thank you for the info update and link, cannonmn; those are definitely photos of the same cannon and carriage. I was delightfully educated by Jasper’s comments, and can surely see the connection between the 24 pdr shown in his pic, with the smaller models that you posted pics of. I’m also now aware that what I originally mistook to be a fleur-de-lis on the cascabel, is in actuality, the top of an acanthus leaf.