Need to Know!

[greenrivers]

If I ever heard anything about this, I must have brushed it off as more firearm mishandling. Last night my wife put on a program named " Remington Under Fire". Now if I am opening up an old topic please direct me, but as owners of 700''s a friend and I want to know if this program was anti gun rhetoric or is there a real and dangerous situation with this rifle? If the trigger is faulty, will an aftermarket fix the problem? Thanks for any help.

[mannyrock]

   No.  It is definitely not just anti-gun rhetoric.  A certain percentage of Remington 721s, 700s and Model 7s will definitely accidentally discharge when the safety is switched from safe to fire.  This most often happens when the rifle has been cocked (by cycling the bolt), the safety placed on, the trigger pulled relatively hard while the safety is on, and then the safety switched off.  Though nobody would intentionally do this, it is a common occurence during hunting and range sessions.  It also appears more common if the trigger mechanism is somewhat dirty, or there is ice in the system from a light rain plus freezing rain while hunting.
 
   There has been lots and lots of litigation as result of accidental discharge and death from this design defect.   The failure of the system has been proven in several lawsuits.  It is also my understanding that the original designer of the trigger system has testified that he warned Remington of this defect while manufacturing was underway, and urged them to fix the problem, by installing an additional small part, which would have cost abouty 50 cents per rifle, but Remington refused.
 
   On a personal level, in my 45 years of deer hunting with many different types and brands of rifle, I have never witnessed or experienced an accidental discharge, EXCEPT for one accidental discharge of a Rem 700 in 7 mag, one of a Rem 700 .243, and one of a Rem Model 7 in .243, each and every one of them under the conditions I have described.  One occured by my father in law, one by my brother, and one by my ex-wife, all very experienced deer hunters and shooters. Nobody was hurt in any of the instances, but it was so unnerving that we all swore off these particular rifles in original factory condition.  NEVER had this happen with any other brand of rifle.
 
   Now, very experienced rifleman and hunters may say that it is the fault of the shooter, because he should scrupulously clean and maintain the trigger system, and take care that no water or ice ever gets down in them.  That may be true in a perfect world, but the truth of the matter is that the world isn't perfect.
 
   Happily, there is a very simple fix.  Just buy and install a Timney trigger in the rifle.  I understand this solves the problem.  Talk to your gunsmith for more advice.
 
Best, Mannyrock

[Graybeard]

Personally I think it was just an antigun rant with little to no basis. I've prolly owned a hundred rifles with the trigger in question and have never ever had a problem with them. Not once.

The problem is the trigger is user adjustable and that's a good thing for most of us but for idiots who don't know what they are doing it's a bad thing and I do NOT believe anyone can properly document a problem that doesn't trace back to shade tree gunsmithing by someone who didn't know what they were doing.

On the Remington forum here there is a multi page thread on the subject if you want to look it up. It was hassled back and forth for a long time.

[greenrivers]

Mannyrock, thank you for your reply and information. It seems that corporate Amareica follows through in all areas and regardless of life threats. I am not sure that the Remington in my safe should be repaired with the further expence of another trigger. Something I will have to decide. I have decided that it will not stay as is. Thanks again.

[greenrivers]

Bill, we were evidenly posting at the same time. Thanks for the responce and opinioon. I will look up the information you mention. It is difficult to seperate the antigun agenda from reality lately, but the article was quite convincing.

[Lloyd Smale]

im with bill. Ive shot many thousands of rounds through remington 700s over the last 40 or more years and ive yet to see it happen. I can easily make it happen with a screwdriver in the shop. But id bet my lunch money that if it ever happened to an out of the box rem its not happened to a 700 anymore then any other rifle. By the way i can also make it happen with a screw driver to a winchester or howa/weatherby, or a ruger. Thing is a hamfisted idiot can make about anything mechanical dangerous to some extent. This was just another poke by the anti gun people.

Personally I think it was just an antigun rant with little to no basis. I've prolly owned a hundred rifles with the trigger in question and have never ever had a problem with them. Not once.

The problem is the trigger is user adjustable and that's a good thing for most of us but for idiots who don't know what they are doing it's a bad thing and I do NOT believe anyone can properly document a problem that doesn't trace back to shade tree gunsmithing by someone who didn't know what they were doing.

On the Remington forum here there is a multi page thread on the subject if you want to look it up. It was hassled back and forth for a long time.

[mannyrock]

 
Gentlmen,
 
    In the three instances of accidental discharge I referred to, one of the rifles (the 7 Mag) had been purchased used.  So, perhaps the trigger of that rifle had been improperly adjusted at some time.  The other two rifles, however, were bought factory new, with the  triggers never adjusted and the epoxy still in place.
 
    Everyone must arrive at their own conclusions of course, but I would point out that there has not been significant recurrent litigation against Ruger, Savage, Howa, Weatherby, Marlin or any other bolt action rifle manufacturers on the basis of documented accidental discharges when safeties are switched off.  Only Remington.   
 
Best, Manny
 

[Bart Solo]

This is an old topic.  Although Remington never admitted it, they did take belated actions to fix the alleged AD defect. 
 
The problem with the argument that there is nothing wrong because it  hasn't happened to me is related to the large number of the Remington 700s in the market place.  Even if you run a gun store and own hundreds of Remington 700s you still own an insignificant fraction of the total number of Remington 700s.  It only takes a comparatively tiny number of accidental discharge cases for safety experts to conclude there is a problem, but even if there is it is very likely nearly all shooters will never experience the defect or even know someone who has. It just takes one AD to kill someone.  That AD makes headlines across the shooting universe. In the case of the Remington 700 many of the instances of AD occured at the end of a long day in the field.  Hunters were unloading their rifles.  Those are pretty much the conditions leading to the problem Mannyrock describes. 
 
One heart wrenching story that I will always remember involved a mother who shot her child.  There were several other similarly tragic stories.  The initial Remington response was to really promote safe shooting practices.  Only later did they alter the trigger.  Although they always denied the problem, it was pretty obvious to anybody who paid attention that Remington knew it had a problem.  Eventually it fixed it, but I think shooter safety training is  the real solution.
 
For me it doesn't matter what brand of firearm I am talking about, I never allow a firearm to point at anything I wouldn't mind shooting.  Last night my 3 1/2 year old grandson found me in my shop working on a rifle I knew was empty and was mounted in a vice. As 3 1/2 year olds will do he started asking questions, then he began to wander in front of the barrel.  I stopped him.  I told him to never allow himself to be in front of a barrel.  I want him to learn gun safety at an early, early age.  After I finished cleaning the rifle, I locked it in my safe.  He ask why I always lock my guns up.  I told him that I do to make sure he and they are safe and that he should do the same.
 
The Remington AD problem has apparently been addressed, but I treat all firearms the same.  Never point the barrel at anything you don't mind shooting.  Certainly be prepared for an AD.  I never cycle an action without making sure the barrel is pointed in a safe direction.  The safety rules even apply when I am engaged in dry fire practice and know for a fact that the gun is loaded with dummy rounds.   
 
I have only had an AD once in my life.  I accidently fired an unfamilar high end Italian shotgun during a trap shooting session.  I had enough sense to have the barrel pointed down range so the only injury was to my pride.  Thank God I was merely the butt of jokes for days.

[Lloyd Smale]

bart it is sad to see someone get killed by a firearm but I will question this. If the lady was so stupid as to point a gun at a kind what makes you think she maybe didnt have her finger on the trigger and have actually shot him. Most people that screw up that bad either dont admit they screwed up or it gets so bad that they actually convince themselves they didnt do it and what do they do turn the gun manfacture into a scapegoat. I remember just a few years ago when the idiot shot himself in the leg drawing his freedom arms 454 cowboy style out of a holster. He swore up and down he didnt cock it or pull the trigger. Now tell me how that is even possible! But the idiot did end up getting a settlement from FAs. Why? because there are just to many liberals in this country that would do anything to infringe on our rights. I dont think anyone can totaly idiot proof a gun and its sad that idiots do shoot themselves and others but unless you were there and actually saw for sure that that lady didnt accidently shoot her son how can you be sure. I sure cant swear the gun didnt accidently discharge. The problem comes from liberals picking up posts like yours and running with them. they dont differentiate between smart gun owners and dumb ones. they dont differentiate between one brand or another. they grab hold on anything anti gun related and run. I bet it would be a real eye opener who paid for lawyers for some of these people sueing gun manufactures. dont for a minute think that when you jump on one manufacture for making unsafe guns a group of people arent screaming "look at this even the guys who love guns agree they can be dangerous and should be banned totaly" Im not here to lecture anyone. Im not here to decide if remington is right or wrong or you are right or wrong. Im just here saying that as gun owners we need to take a step back and really look hard at these things before we make a public opinion on them that may eventually be used as ammo to ban gun sales all together. You may think this is crazy but just look who we have running this country right now! Do you think maybe hed like an excuse to take your guns away!!!Bottom line is like you said Millions of 700s are out there. They been used by police depts by the army, navy, and marines for over 40 years. Why dont you here them complaining. Do you think a sniper would risk giving away his position by a gun that went off when a bolt was closed? Now some lady kills her son and its that proven gun that is blamed!!! No chance it may have been her fault!!! Do you see my point.