High pressure, low pressure ?

[otterbob]

  High pressure, low pressure ?

 
Below is my opinion from reading this forum and other web sites. Feel free to take it apart and offer your own opinion.

 
I have searched and read the FAQ section of this forum and the Accessory barrel program page at HR1871

 
It appears that there are 3 groups of Firearms/Receivers, {center fire as topic of discussion}

 
# 1 - Firearms/Receivers  Pre 87 , pre SB1 for which no accessory barrel is offered. Noted not on HR1871.com, but on forums as “low pressure” receivers.
# 2 - Firearms/Receivers  87-99 SB1 for which most shotgun , muzzle loading and VERY limited rifle  barrels are offered. Noted not on  HR1871.com, but on forums as “low pressure” receivers.
# 3 -  Firearms/Receivers  99-to date SB2 for which almost any barrel can be fitted. Noted not on HR1871.com, but on forums as “high pressure” receivers.

 
HR1871 does not discuss pressure in any information on there site, yet we (owners) wonder their reasoning for not offering more “accessory barrels” for the “SB1” and “pre SB1” receivers.
I do not know who labeled “SB1” and “pre SB1” as “low pressure” receivers and SB2 as “high pressure” receivers, but all that comes out of the labels is confusion !
The person or group does not mention what pressure they are referring to, but most in the shooting sports would draw the conclusion the they must have intended high pressure, low pressure to reference SAAMI specs but then the question becomes what is high and what is low ? And why do some cartridges above and below the mid range of the high and low numbers be offered only on an SB2 that were once on SB1 or pre SB1 configurations ?

 
It is a given that the SB2 Firearms/Receivers are superior to the SB1 and pre SB1, but the only conclusion I can make about accessory barrel availability is that it is a marketing and or ownership (acquisition of manufacturing assets) and liability (product liability) position of the current owners of HR1871 and not a “PRESSURE” determination.

 
Otter Bob

[demented]

  I have a '96 SB-2 that is not eligible for high pressure cartridges. 

[cwlongshot]

WELCOME to the forum Otter Bob!
 
Sounds like you have done your reading and pretty much have it all down. I have a couple things to add.
 
One correction:
The SB1 or current SB1 will not be chambered for any "rifle" caliber from H&R. Only the 357 & 44 Magnum PISTOL calibers.

Now a couple comments:
 The pressure limits "we" have arrived at for the current SB1 receiver is 40K. So technically the 30-30, 35Rem, 357 Maxi and 45-70. All of these qualify as they are factory or better quantified as under SAMMI spec of 40,000 cup. (So do a host of others, but these are the popular calibers from the current lineup) Many of us have older pre SB1 guns in 30-30 and 45-70 so factory made. Also many of us have some of these calibers on SB1 receivers with zero issues. (As long as we do not get "generous" with the powder charges all is just fine.) Some of the Old time calibers commonly find there way into handi barrels and the plentiful SB1 receivers. Like the 25-20, 32-20, 25-35, 32-40 for example. All of these have SAMMI limits below the aforementioned 40K pressure limits and will live long happy lives on SB1 receivers.
 
The older or pre SB1 receivers where also different then the current offerings. The o58, 157 and 158 guns had the barrels manufactured differently and are also not as strong as current offerings. This is only an issue as we here like to "stub" and re-chamber for higher intensity calibers and generally speaking these barrels are not good candidates for such.
 
Then there are the Ultra Slug Hunters in 12Ga. and the 10Ga shotguns.. They are kinda SB1 with the strength of a SB2 but considered SB1.   They are manufactured closer to SB2 as far as materials so are stronger than a SB1. Yet only considered a SB1. They are also a bit bigger as the 10Ga barrels they use are bigger. (Yes, the USH 12 ga is a 10Ga blank bored 12Ga.)
 
Demented,
 Tim knows off the top of his head, (Please correct if incorrect) I would have to read but know there was a few years that parts of the guns from those years was "sourced out". So as a precaution, there quality is suspect and H&R will not fit a barrel to any of them.
 
CW

[Goatwhiskers]

The problem as I understand it is two-fold: first, that the rifle calibers on early frames had a silver soldered lug which is not nearly as strong.  Second, and more important, is that SB-1 and earlier frames were made of cast iron, the SB-2 is made of investment cast steel which is much stronger than cast iron.  Best to stick with safety.  Goatwhiskers

[gcrank1]

And then there is the issue of firing pin diameters, large for shotguns, small for rifle calibers. Sometimes the large work OK (maybe even often OK) with the pistol and low pressure rifle calibers, but if the load is 'hot' enough to make the primer 'flow' back into the large firing pin hole it can be difficult, or lock up the action.

[otterbob]

WELCOME to the forum Otter Bob!

Thanks much , CW

One correction:
The SB1 or current SB1 will not be chambered for any "rifle" caliber from H&R. Only the 357 & 44 Magnum PISTOL calibers.

  With respect to cwlongshot, because I believe he understands what I am trying to explain about labels E.g. High pressure, low pressure that confuse people.
In the context of  pre SB1, SB1, and SB2 Firearms/Receivers there is no such thing as rifle verses pistol calibers, there are only calibers or rifle calibers. If one is to call a caliber, a pistol caliber, one would be referring to a caliber developed for a handgun and not offered in a rifle, or as some of us that have been involved in shooting sports for many years have adopted the term, Pistol caliber, to include a caliber developed for a handgun but is now offered in a rifle i.e. 357 magnum, 44 magnum, AND in this discussion 50 S&W magnum.
 
So keeping to context we are offered only 2 calibers or “Rifle calibers” in SB1 configurations
As reference, I point to the HR1871.com Barrel Accessory Program page that includes a list of “RIFLE” barrels available that include chambering for the 3 “pistol” calibers mentioned above, but only offer 2 on the SB1 Firearms/Receivers.

 
To say only pistol calibers are offered for the SB1 Firearms/Receivers would not be correct as the  50 S&W magnum is not offered in the SB1 Firearms/Receivers configuration.

 
Cwlongshot was correct is stating that only 357 magnum, 44 magnum is offered for the SB1 Firearms/Receivers. I am only pointing out how “labels” can be so confusing to less experienced shooting enthusiast.


Otter Bob

 

[cwlongshot]

Bob,
 That " confusion & misunderstanding" is exactly why I corrected your comment from "Rifle" to "Pistol". I offer that most newbies, know a 357 and a 44 is a pistol/revolver round because they where developed originally for a handgun. Saying "rifle" to such a person denotes 308-30/06 etc. These calibers have never been offered on a SB1 and should never be put on one.
NOT all "pistol" calibers are on a SB1 either! The 45 Colt comes on a SB2 as does the 500 S&W as you mentioned. Only recently the 357 and 44 where demoted to the SB1 receiver as well...
 
Now moving from handi calibers for a moment,  and in referance to the no pistol calibers comment. I offer that there are many calibers designed for handguns that have not been factory chambered in a rifle... 25 ACP, 32 ACP, 32 Colt, 32 S&W, 327 Federal, 30 Herrett, 38 S&W, 357 Herrett, 10MM, 45 AR...to mention but a few... I think you see my point. These are handgun Calibers. Making a comment that there is no such thing as pistol caliber, only "calibers and rifle calibers" is simply incorrect and misleading. Especially in light of your next paragraph. Where you comment about a newbie misunderstanding an obvious (To most of us) handgun caliber like 357 and 44 magnum to me seems queer.
 
Also in reference to the accessory barrel program, the factory will fit 99% of there barrels to the SB2. But only shotgun, 357 Mag, 44 Mag and a BP barrel to a SB1 frame. (The two "problem" barrels are the 10Ga and 12 Ga USH.) Even then, as mentioned there are small firing pin and large firing pin SB1 receivers out there. Large FP can cause problems with the 357 and 44...
 
Another frame I did not mention initially is the SIDEKICK. It was created to get around the firearms act of 1968 and skirt the requirement to fill out the form 4473. As this receiver was and only is used for black powder firearms and will not fit rifle or pistol or shotgun barrels.
 
CW

[av-doctor]

Otter Bob i believe you are a little confused,
   pre-87 or pre-bankrupty if you will, they made one basic receiver it was case hardened cast iron.
   post-87 they made 2 receivers a sb1,which are cast steel (usually referred to as shotgun receivers)
                                                   a sb2,which is a machined steel which is then hardened (correct me if i'm wrong),(usually referred to as rifle receivers)
   There was a time where frames were outsourced if i recall they are considered sb2 but as mentioned the current ownership of hr1871 will not fit barrels to outsourced frames.
  as for high and low pressure these are terms adopted by the shooting world as general classification for types of cartridges (as for the context which its most commonly used here) low= 40k and under, high= 41k and above

[otterbob]

  CW ,

 
I think we agree on everything said and have explained it in different ways.

 
My point at the beginning was that it “appears” that in an attempt to understand the H&R 1871 LLC barrel selection, folks outside of  H&R 1871 LLC are using the labels “High or Low pressure” without all of the facts and or variations that current owners of H&R 1871 LLC has to work around to bring us the products they do, even though we want more then what H&R 1871 LLC can do while protecting their back-side in this world of “I'll SUE”
I tip my hat to the Owners of H&R 1871 LLC for attempting to offer as many calibers on as many receivers as possible. Just because myself or others believe the chambering and fit would be acceptable, it will never make it happen.

 

 
Otter Bob

[quickdtoo]

   post-87 they made 2 receivers a sb1,which are cast steel (usually referred to as shotgun receivers)
                                                   a sb2,which is a machined steel which is then hardened (correct me if i'm wrong),(usually referred to as rifle receivers)
 

SB1 are ductile cast iron, not steel, SB2 are heat treated, investment cast alloy steel. 

Tim

[gcrank1]

Isnt the 'heat treated investment cast alloy steel' what Ruger uses? Though it may not be the same alloy, the process has surely proven itself in the gunmaking world for some time now.

[quickdtoo]

There's been speculation that SB2 frames were made by Ruger at one time or another, but no one has verified it.

Tim

[longhorn717]

So I could get a 12 gauge shotgun barrel fitted to my 2007 sb2 30-06? Do they make a 3 1/2" chamber rifled barrel for 12 Gauge?

[quickdtoo]

Yes on the shotgun barrel, no on the 12ga 3½" rifled barrel, all I see are 3", the USH barrel requires an SB2(10ga) shotgun frame, btw.

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.asp

[Sprint]

There's been speculation that SB2 frames were made by Ruger at one time or another, but no one has verified it.

Tim

Yes Tim, you are correct in saying Ruger (Pine Tree Castings) made frames for the H&R 1871 line. These frames have a capital R and a "pine tree" image in a circle cast into the inside bottom of the frame.
 
Sprint
 
 

[MSP Ret]

If this is any help several years ago I spoke with a Ruger rep who advised me in confidence that Ruger was casting the frames for H&R/NEF at that time. We spoke of the difference in cost (about $2.00 per frame IIRC) between the cost to produce an SB1 frame and an SB2 frame. Niether of us could understand why they did not just order all SB2 frames but we thought it could only be the "bean counters". It is my belief that although barrels will not be fitted to those "outsourced" frames, they are as good, or better than, the others....<><....

[AtlLaw]

These frames have a capital R and a "pine tree" image in a circle cast into the inside bottom of the frame.

So THAT'S what that thing is!     Well I'll be dipped in fecal matter...     Learn sumpin new everday.   

[Winter Hawk]

back-side in this world of “I'll SUE”

If memory serves me right, that is the reason Harrington & Richardson went into receivership.  They were sued out of existence.  The employees formed a company which took over about a year later.  Because of legal issues with the lawsuit they had to change the name (which is where NEF comes in), and they couldn't do any work on the firearms manufactured by the old H&R.  There could be no links at all to the old company.

Several years later, around 1991 I believe, they came out with the .45-70 chambering which was the first time it had been brought out on this platform.  I remember wondering what that would be like given how light the gun is.  A fellow worker bought one in '92.  Later they offered high pressure cartridges.  I bought my first .30-06 in 1993 and kinda wish I had never parted with it.  Of course I feel that way about my .30-30/20ga. combo I bought in 1982 also, and my sporterized Springfield and my pump .22 marlin and....

Hope this helps!
-Kees-

[quickdtoo]

There's been speculation that SB2 frames were made by Ruger at one time or another, but no one has verified it.

Tim

Yes Tim, you are correct in saying Ruger (Pine Tree Castings) made frames for the H&R 1871 line. These frames have a capital R and a "pine tree" image in a circle cast into the inside bottom of the frame.
 
Sprint

Thanks!!!

Tim

[quickdtoo]

Several years later, around 1991 I believe, they came out with the .45-70 chambering which was the first time it had been brought out on this platform.  I remember wondering what that would be like given how light the gun is. 

First time on an SB2 frame, but the model 155 Shikari was around long before in 45-70 and 44 mag. 

Tim

[Winter Hawk]

First time on an SB2 frame, but the model 155 Shikari was around long before in 45-70 and 44 mag. 
Tim

I stand corrected, I forgot about the Shikari.

-Kees-

[cjrjck]

   post-87 they made 2 receivers a sb1, and a sb2,
   There was a time where frames were outsourced if i recall they are considered sb2 but as mentioned the current ownership of hr1871 will not fit barrels to outsourced frames.
 

I have several of the older sb2 receivers that came with high pressure rifle barrels from the factory. While H&R will not fit high pressure barrels to these frames, they seem fine.