Author Topic: Mystery Item (Read 893 times)

Zulu · « **on:** February 05, 2012, 03:16:25 AM »

I am trying to help a friend who is a Civil War historian. Two of these items, that are identical, were found on the Port Hudson battlefield in Louisiana. They are made of brass.
Could they be artillery related?
Part of a fuze cutter of some kind?
Two parts of a single piece that became seperated?
A modern day beer bottle opener?
Any help would be appreciated.
Zulu

shred · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2012, 03:38:15 AM »

Are they absolutely identical down to the round pocket on the right side, or could they be a left and right side to something?

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:06:10 AM »

The pieces were buried side by side, "bookmatched" as if the complete item had been laminated using these stamped pieces. See how the rusty part on each appears to have been face-to-face. Personally I think they are parts of a 20th C. mass-produced item, but I'll ask some of my "whatzit experts" on another forum. If you could see fit to leave the photos on your PB account indefinitely, at the link used here, the items will be identified here or there sooner or later.

GGaskill · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2012, 06:39:22 AM »

How thick are they?

cannonmn · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2012, 11:05:27 AM »

Quote

How thick are they?

'Course I can't measure 'em directly, the poster will have to get that info. But playing with the screen's zoom control, calipers, the ruler in the photo, estimating the camera angle, and trigonometry leads me to guess they are about 0.075" thick. Let's see if I was anywhere close.

Zulu · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2012, 11:08:24 AM »

I don't have any further information about them other than what I posted. My friend is in Louisiana. I have directed him to this GBO thread. Maybe he will send me some answers.
Zulu

Zulu · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:00:24 PM »

Here is the answer to the questions I asked my friend in Louisiana. Maybe this will shed some light on the subject.
Zulu

"Michael--the pictures sent to you are of one specimen only, showing both sides. It is 1/16th inch thick. They were not found together nor by the same person. I found one long ago, in my early days at Port Hudson. The other was found by a kid living next door to me at the time. Now both came from the same general area. But the strange part about this is that I just learned of this coincidence about two months ago when the finder--who is a grown man now and moved to another part of town, and I hadn't seen him since he was a kid.--brought it over to show me, if I could identify it. That's when I recognized the similarity. I mean to tell you that they are both the same, identical--they coincide precisely throughout in size and thickness and design. At first I thought it was some kind of stencil, then maybe the inner makings of a lock…
Beats me, my friend.
Thanks,
Billy

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #7 on:** February 06, 2012, 12:26:02 AM »

I'll add nothing but speculation.

I look at the sweeping curve with the hook-tooth. Perhaps to clean a groove?

On the top drawing - the hole with the circular imprint - a washer pressing against it ?

The profile on the bottom is reminiscent of some of the curves of a cannon.

And the holes? What went through them? A gauge?

cannonmn · « **Reply #8 on:** February 06, 2012, 01:45:22 AM »

The other forum where I asked about this has very few meaningful comments, and most are by a well-known "troll" so I wouldn't be doing anyone here a favor by connecting you directly with that thread. I did transfer the owner's latest description over there and got this response from one of the "serious" posters there who is trying to understand this object (or these objects?)
"So wait a minute - does this person have both items in his/her possession, or did they have them both at some point, say when the "boy" came over, so that s/he could lay them on top of each other, to see that they were identical? Or are they remembering the second one as identical to the one they have?
I don't know how much this matters but I am starting to get confused and trying to follow the story."
Of course I couldn't answer his question, it isn't clear to me either.

shred · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2012, 03:41:04 AM »

At 1/16" thick, they likely weren't free-hanging in a wartime situation, or they'd be bent beyond recognition. So I think a lot of the question is what were they attached to and how?

Some speculation: The curved and aligned slots almost look like some sort of ratchet plate or locking slots for something. Do other brass Civil war artifacts from the same battlefield show the same patina? The circular pocket could be for a washer and axle which would fit the ratchet idea. If the separate pieces are truly identical, it would imply some sort of stamping, but that then implies they needed a lot of 'em for whatever it is they do.

bilmac · « **Reply #10 on:** February 06, 2012, 04:44:33 AM »

At 1/16 inch I would guess that there were several laminated together like a master padlock.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #11 on:** February 06, 2012, 04:44:54 AM »

Although found on a Civil War battlefield they might be a dropped item from another time period.

cannonmn · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2012, 06:08:46 AM »

Maybe one of the plates making up a shift-lever box for a tractor or something. Imagine the levers as round shafts running at right-angles to the plate, a smaller and a larger lever. Each lever has three positions but the smaller one just operates valves or something with no kickback, so no detents are needed. The larger one is for gear positioning and needs to be retained somewhat so there are detents in the two upper positions. Just guessing.

shred · « **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2012, 07:35:42 AM »

They bear more than a passing resemblance to levers from a lever-tumbler (also called bit-key) lock, but it would be quite a large one. Brass and fairly thin would be appropriate although you would expect slight differences in the key area so not any old key would work. Were such a lock smashed apart, you would expect to find several levers lying about. Dropping a line with photos to some of the lock museums & forums might prove fruitful as there were a staggeringly vast number of different designs made.

http://www.historyoflocks.com/chu003.html

Another one: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Chubb_lock.jpg/350px-Chubb_lock.jpg

cannonmn · « **Reply #14 on:** February 06, 2012, 10:44:35 AM »

I think you are correct, good job. When I look at the photo with the shiny, similar items in the middle, the cutout part on the right is very much like the one on the dug item(s.)

Zulu · « **Reply #15 on:** February 06, 2012, 11:04:36 AM »

It really does look like it doesn't it? I agree, good job. My friend may be disappointed. Maybe there is a buried safe out there somewhere.

Zulu

Artilleryman · « **Reply #16 on:** February 06, 2012, 11:09:37 AM »

Excellent work Shred.

shred · « **Reply #17 on:** February 06, 2012, 11:39:14 AM »

Thanks. The somewhat embarrassing thing is I used to do locksmith work, but it took two days of speculating to trigger the right memory (even though lock parts was mentioned in the original)...

While not directly battle-related, these could be interesting bits of history. There are so many lock variations that with the right references, it could be possible to pin them down to a particular manufacturer and era, and there are plenty of things on or near a battlefield (IIRC a long siege) that need to be locked up. Assuming the ID is correct, these were part of a large (8"+ across, I'd guess) and possibly noteworthy lock.

flagman1776 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2012, 11:41:36 AM »

Good Work!! I've had modern combo safe locks apart and they look & work just the same, but smaller. Not much strength is needed because it only blocks the movement of the hardened locking parts.