Author Topic: Is there an empirical formula for calc'ing BHN from cast weight?  (Read 1355 times)

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Offline Land_Owner

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Manufacturer's publish anticipated weight (and specific gravity) of a cast bullet when using a known alloy.  I reference Ranch Dog's # TL358-100-RF linked here:  http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TL358100RF/bullet/alloy_chart.gif wherein the anticipated weight of the finished bullet is a function of the alloy. 

I thought the BHN of lead was on the order of 6 and that of 50/50 WW's was on the order of 12 air cooled, not accounting for 20-day aging gain or loss.  Too bad Ranch Dog doesn't list the weight of a lead bullet or I would create a linear interpolation of BHN for the weight bullets I am casting...which is a formula that I would like to achieve.

I thought I was using 50/50 WW's as I smelt it myself, but my Ranch Dog cast bullets are an average of 104.5 grains.  Ranch Dog says their WW bullets are 100 grains.

What causes this?  Can I predict BHN without a tester?

Offline blpenn66502

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Re: Is there an empirical formula for calc'ing BHN from cast weight?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2012, 01:04:03 PM »
Based on the RD's chart and a specific gravity of 11.34 for pure lead, a pure lead bullet should weigh 103.1 gr for that mold.  Your bullets aren't casting at the exact specification (volume) for a perfect bullet from that mold.
 
 However, you could cast some pure lead bullets and use that as a reference point to extrapolate back for a rough idea of BHN. 

If you could measure the specific gravity of you bullet you could also get close but you would still be uncertain as to the ratio of antimony and tin (their specific gravity values are reasonably close to each other) and antimony has a greater effect on final BHN than tin. 

Here's a link on alloys and BHN:
http://www.lasc.us/castbulletalloy.htm

Best,
blpenn66502

Online Lloyd Smale

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Re: Is there an empirical formula for calc'ing BHN from cast weight?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2012, 12:18:03 AM »
If your refering to 5050 ww/pure your probably closer to 9-10. Strainght ww is about 12 air cooled. Keep in mind with all of this though that alloys vary. WWs can swing from about 9-12 especially if your melting your stickons in with the clip ons. Even what ive been given that was called pure wasnt nessisarily pure. Ive had batches that tested around 8bhn. Lineotype can be all over the place too. Ive seen it go from a low of 17 up to a high of 25bhn. Repeatability is touch to accomplish smelting lead. Even hardness testers have room for error. Back when i was anal about it i had one mold a 421429  that i used for a control. I would get a weight from a bullet and record it then when i smelted id cast a bullet before i poured ingots and compare the weight if it was heavy id add a bit more ww or lyno or if it was light id add a bit more pure to get it the same. Even then your surely not dealing with the exact same alloy as theres many ways to harden lead and because two bullets weight the same doesnt mean the tin/antimony ratio in that batch is the same as the last. Like i said this was back when i was anal. Anymore i take my 200lb pot and throw some of each in it thats close to the ration i want and use it.
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Offline Land_Owner

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Re: Is there an empirical formula for calc'ing BHN from cast weight?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2012, 11:50:11 AM »
What is it with stick-ons?  Stick-ons seem more "pure" and pliable than WW's.  Are they not the same composition as WW's?

On the PLUS side, these bullets disintegrate when impacting the hardened steel of used disc blades in a manner that is resounding and pleasing.  I am certain these bullets would "sting" a bit if shot into human muscle and bone.  Probably leave a mark too.  Of course, the first one is gonna be followed up by its 6 brothers and backed up by another 6-cousins in the 2nd clip.  But that is Food for Thought on another post.

Offline BCB

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Re: Is there an empirical formula for calc'ing BHN from cast weight?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2012, 02:49:38 AM »
 Land_Owner…
 
Get a hardness tester and get if over with…
 
I hear all of this about wheel weights being around a BHN of 12 all of the time.  I wonder if this number has been verified or just quoted?...
 
I cast pure wheel weights and some of the ones I cast are quit old so I do believe they are from the “vintage years”…
 
I have a SAECO hardness tester and it shows my wheel weights to be right at a BHN of 8.5 to 9.0.  That is what the SAECO chart indicates they should be…
 
I have NEVER found a wheel weight to be at 12 in my entire casting career.  But I “heard” they were before I bought a hardness tester…
 
And how would you calculate the S.G. of a boolit?  I mean, I know how, but ever try measuring water displacement?...
 
And, what mould casts as it is designed to do.  It would have to have been made by some computer system and then it would have had to have had “laboratory grade” alloy put in it to do the calibrating of the mould…
 
Way too many parameters to not use a hardness tester—purchase a good one also.  Trying to measure the diameter of a steel ball indention in a piece of alloy might be a bit tricky also—room for much error…
 
Here is a link and it shows the chart and gives some equations: 
 
http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_SAECO_TABLE.htm
 
Just my thoughts…
 
Good-luck…BCB

Offline us920669

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Re: Is there an empirical formula for calc'ing BHN from cast weight?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2012, 09:09:35 AM »
I can't contribute anything to the question of calculating hardness by weight, but I found the LASC links very interesting.  I was very impressed by the link, under Cast Bullet Notes, to the hardness checker test, where different people measured a batch of bullets and got remarkably different results using various checkers.  This post did motivate me to try something I've been considering for some time now.  An auto body tool was used to drive a .061 decapping pin into various metals, with results shown below.  I'm sure this has been done, and there may be methodological flaws, but as an LASC post noted, the actual BNH number is irrelevant as long as it gives you useful information, and the results I got are very consistent. 
The pin had to be held in an expander button, and I cut the stem off anticipating use in a 22-250, but this proved inadequate, so a 25-06 button was used.  Unfortunately, the longer length prevented the button from fitting properly in the tool, so a certain amount of mis-alignment was unavoidable.  Also, ingots tend to be uneven and a crooked strike raised a dimple of metal around the hole, complicating measurement.
Of the material checked, the pure lead and linotype alloy were purchased online and their purity can not be verified.  The wheel weight ingots are a blend of internet metal and the last of my stock, secured from a tire shop about 25 years ago.  I behaves about as I would expect it to.  The 50/50 lead-tin is from Rotometals, a trusted source.  H and VH are two of my blends.
I plotted results for known BNH metals on a graph, and it suggests the relationship is algorithmic rather than linear, as the SAECO data indicates.  For your consideration and possible amusement, I offer:     

Online Lloyd Smale

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Re: Is there an empirical formula for calc'ing BHN from cast weight?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 12:35:08 AM »
stickon wws are very close to pure lead.
What is it with stick-ons?  Stick-ons seem more "pure" and pliable than WW's.  Are they not the same composition as WW's?

On the PLUS side, these bullets disintegrate when impacting the hardened steel of used disc blades in a manner that is resounding and pleasing.  I am certain these bullets would "sting" a bit if shot into human muscle and bone.  Probably leave a mark too.  Of course, the first one is gonna be followed up by its 6 brothers and backed up by another 6-cousins in the 2nd clip.  But that is Food for Thought on another post.
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Offline Larry Gibson

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