Mountain Molds On The Lee Factory Crimp Die

[saddlebum]

Interesting short story from Mtn. Molds website.
 
I bought a Lee Factory Crimp die for 44 Magnum.    This is not a collet-type die, but it is unique in that it has a sizing ring at the entrance of the die.    The sizing ring is supposed to ensure reliable chambering.    My  4" M29 has been known to walk cast bullets out of the case, so I wanted to see  if the Lee die would hold the bullet more securely than the Redding die that I have been using for the past 22 years.
 
Two dummy rounds were loaded using an air-cooled wheelweight bullet.    The bullets were as-cast, 0.432" - 0.433".    One cartridge was given a moderate crimp in the Redding die, while the other was given a firm crimp in the Lee Factory Crimp die.   The Lee die shrunk the cartridge OD from 0.4575" to 0.454".    The question is, what was shrinking?    Was the cast bullet being squashed by the Lee die?
 
To find out, I used an inertia puller to yank the bullets.    It took 67 whacks to free the bullet that had been crimped in the Redding die.    That bullet measured 0.432",  maybe 0.0005" smaller than it was originally.    Only 3 whacks were required to free the bullet that had been crimped in the Lee die.    That bullet had shrunk down to 0.430".    That is totally unacceptable because my gun has 0.4334" throats.   To heck with the Lee Factory Crimp die.
 
I converted the Lee Factory Crimp die into a die holder for my homemade push-thru  bullet sizing dies.    I sawed off the worthless sizing ring and bored most of the die out to 5/8", so it would accept my 5/8" dies.    A setscrew in the lockring penetrates the die body to grip the 5/8" die.
 
http://mountainmolds.com/

[res45]

I've never used the LFCD for pistol cartridges,I've always just used the built in taper or roll crimp feature of the bullet seater die and so far over about 30 year of reloading I haven't had any ammo related issued in any handgun I've owned.

[anachronism]

You can also disassemble the die, then screw the die body in your press. Heat the carbide ring area with a torch to release the locktite, then drive the carbide ring out the bottom with a hammer & punch. then kill the carbide ring with the hammer. I've been contemplating using the body, with the sizing ring intact, as a sizing die for cases that I don't want sized much, just enough to true things up a mite for use with oversize cast bullets.

[gray wolf]

44 Mag should use a roll crimp for a revolver, unless the roll crimp is so severe
that it dents the bullet badly it shouldn't change the size of the bullet.
some very heavy roll crimps may not open 100% when the round goes bang and may rub the sides of the bullet when fired. The bullet should be held in place by friction, the roll crimp prevents the bullet movement for and aft when fired in a revolver. Auto cases use a taper crimp and it's only function is to remove the flare at the case mouth. over crimping on an auto cartridge adds nothing to bullet hold and may actually lesson it.  The brass springs back but the lead does not.
  The lee fact. crimp die does not work for everyone ( not the rifle one )
It has been know to reduce the size of some lead bullets.

[bfrshooter]

44 Mag should use a roll crimp for a revolver, unless the roll crimp is so severe
that it dents the bullet badly it shouldn't change the size of the bullet.
some very heavy roll crimps may not open 100% when the round goes bang and may rub the sides of the bullet when fired. The bullet should be held in place by friction, the roll crimp prevents the bullet movement for and aft when fired in a revolver. Auto cases use a taper crimp and it's only function is to remove the flare at the case mouth. over crimping on an auto cartridge adds nothing to bullet hold and may actually lesson it.  The brass springs back but the lead does not.
  The lee fact. crimp die does not work for everyone ( not the rifle one )
It has been know to reduce the size of some lead bullets.

This is 100% correct! You must have good and EVEN case tension above all else. A bullet must be hard enough to resist being sized when seating.
It is refreshing to find a good answer. 

[saddlebum]

44 Mag should use a roll crimp for a revolver, unless the roll crimp is so severe
that it dents the bullet badly it shouldn't change the size of the bullet.
some very heavy roll crimps may not open 100% when the round goes bang and may rub the sides of the bullet when fired. The bullet should be held in place by friction, the roll crimp prevents the bullet movement for and aft when fired in a revolver. Auto cases use a taper crimp and it's only function is to remove the flare at the case mouth. over crimping on an auto cartridge adds nothing to bullet hold and may actually lesson it.  The brass springs back but the lead does not.
  The lee fact. crimp die does not work for everyone ( not the rifle one )
It has been know to reduce the size of some lead bullets.

This is 100% correct! You must have good and EVEN case tension above all else. A bullet must be hard enough to resist being sized when seating.
It is refreshing to find a good answer. 

Case tension is achieved when running the case through a proper sizing die for a good friction fit. And if, "The brass springs back but the lead does not.", as mentioned, then why use the Lee die at all?
All my RCBS sizing dies resize enough to create a slight bulge in the case where the bullet comes in contact with it when the bullet is seated. How much more friction fit can one get than that? If the "spring effect", as mentioned, comes into effect, or the cast bullet is resized, then the Lee die screws up a good round and is worse than worthless.
At best, it is an extra step in the reloading process that is unnecessary and a waste of time. At worst, it makes an inaccurate load that is possibly not secured in the case. Then too, if one sizes cast bullets to their guns dimensions, as they should, one can easily run into problems with a 'one size fits all' LFC die.
People that use LFC dies are the same folks that bought a Thigh Master, Chevy Volt and own every RonCo gadget ever sold on TV..........

[Frank2]

Saddlebum:

the Lee die screws up a good round and is worse than worthless. At best, it is an extra step in the reloading process that is unnecessary and a waste of time. At worst, it makes an inaccurate load that is possibly not secured in the case. Then too, if one sizes cast bullets to their guns dimensions, as they should, one can easily run into problems with a 'one size fits all' LFC die.People that use LFC dies are the same folks that bought a Thigh Master, Chevy Volt and own every RonCo gadget ever sold on TV.......... 

The Lee rifle-style FC die, different than a pistol FC die, eliminates the sizing.  It is better than a seating die because you get same crimp with different case lengths and if you don't have a crimp groove, it'll make one without buckling the case.  You can get it for 44mag but it is special order.   

[saddlebum]

Thank you, Frank, for the advise. I know about the shouldered case LFC dies and that they work better for those cartridges, rifles and single shot handguns. I just don't feel a need to change what has always worked for me and perhaps millions of other shooters for the last 60 or 80 years. I'm just a hunter, not a benchrest shooter and getting from 1/4" to 3/4", three shot groups with my hunting rifles is satisfactory for what I do.
I appreciate the heads up though!

[Frank2]

Saddlebum:

Thank you, Frank, for the advise. I know about the shouldered case LFC dies and that they work better for those cartridges, rifles and single shot handguns. I just don't feel a need to change what has always worked for me and perhaps millions of other shooters for the last 60 or 80 years. I'm just a hunter, not a benchrest shooter and getting from 1/4" to 3/4", three shot groups with my hunting rifles is satisfactory for what I do.I appreciate the heads up though!

There are some who shoot powerful handguns that could benefit from the Lee rifle-style crimp die. 

[Lloyd Smale]

I tend to agree with him and its not easy as i dont care for him much. I dont use lee crimp dies for straight walled cases anymore. I just aquire a second seating die of about any manufacture and take the seating plug out of it and use it to crimp with in a seperate operation from seating the bullet.

[azvaquero]

Saddlebum, you are correct in that if the Lee FC die touches your brass over the bullet you will have loose bullet problems.
However, I love the Lee FC dies.  But you have to have them set up right.
The FC die should be large enough to only touch a round which would otherwise not fit in the chamber at all.  In other words, about .004" under your chamber diameter (chamber diameter, NOT throat diameter).  Assuming the FC die is the right size (large enough diameter), if it sizes the lead bullet at all, that round would not have chambered anyway.
The FC die can be opened up by chucking in a lathe and using a dremel with a cylindrical diamond bit.  Open it up to .004" under chamber diameter.  Then you are ready to get full use out of it, as you will see below.
In station #1 I use a decapping die.  All it does is decap.  It doesn't touch the brass otherwise.
In station #2 I have my sizing die set up to NECK SIZE ONLY.  It is backed mostly out of the toolhead, so it only sizes as far down the brass as the bullet is deep.  I want my neck size I.D. to be about .004 or so under my cast bullet diameter, for good tension.  And my FC die is TOO LARGE to ever touch this portion of the cartridge when I crimp it.
In station #3, my belling (expansion) plug barely touches the inside of the brass, not really opening it up any.  You can reduce the diameter of these in a drill press with silicone carbide or aluminum oxide paper.
In station #4, I seat the bullet.
In station #5, I have my Lee FC die (which also crimps).  This FC die nowhere near touches the bullet and neck of the brass case near the neck portion, because it is opened up to about .004 under my chamber diameter.  IF the body of the brass case (the bottom half) is too large to chamber, this FC die sizes it down.  I am, in effect, neck sizing only with my regular sizing die, while sizing the rest of the case with the FC die.  This makes for a more accurate round and a much better seal.
For example, in the .45 Colt, chambers in Rugers commonly run .483".  Throats are usually (nowdays) around .452".  If I am shooting a .452" bullet, the I.D. on the neck should be around .448" after neck sizing.  After seating the bullet, neck I.D. is of course now .452" and neck O.D. (on brass with .011" thick walls) runs .474" -- unfortunately a full .009" smaller than the chambers.  That's a lot of "slop" and not only leads to inaccuracy, but to gas blowby.  Not a lot we can do about this with .452" bullets -- it is the fault of the manufacturers for keeping tolerances so sloppy. 
I want to work my brass the least amount possible, and better accuracy to boot, so my FC die sizes the bottom portion of the brass .004" under the chamber measurements (.479"), which springs back a couple thousands to around .481" after pulled back out of the die.  So the bottom of the brass, at least, has minimal slop -- only .002" clearance to be able to chamber the round.  The front though has been worked a lot more, and will not center the bullet well unless the front driving band of the bullet enters partially into the throat.  It's a compromise at best. 
Veral Smith recommends going with vastly oversized bullets, matched to the CHAMBERS and not THROATS, to remedy this.  In other words, with the above revolver you would load bullets sized to .459", which would make your neck O.D. (with brass walls being .011") .481".  .002" is all you need if you keep the chambers clean.  I haven't tried this, but he claims that the bullet would then be less apt to tip cockeyed upon beginning forward movement, and would be uniformly sized down as much as .010" in some cases by the time it made it through the bore.
Anyway, that is the right way to use the Lee FC die.  Redding, I believe, just came out with a die with two carbide rings in the same die, with the same idea in mind.  Only problem is, Saddlebum, just like you are thinking, revolver dimensions vary, and the carbide rings may have to be adjusted in I.D.  It is easy on the Lee.  But may be more difficult with two rings in the same die.
All said though, neck sizing works great in rifles, and also works great in revolvers!

[saddlebum]

Thats all fine for you. I would rather size my bullets to the gun, use a standard seating/crimp die that has worked fine for years, cut out the extra step and expense, and do more shooting. Maybe I'm just too darn practical. If I don't have a problem, then I don't try to fix it and I shy away from gimmick tools. No need to reinvent the hammer. It works fine just the way it is.......................

[azvaquero]

What extra step?  I pull the lever once, and out pops a round.  Each and every time.  I can't imagine you or anyone else can do better than that.  It's about as simple as it gets. It may take a little extra effort to set up your toolhead right in the beginning, but then again, that is what handloading is all about, isn't it?  I probably spent about an extra hour and enjoyed every minute of it!  I now have precision rounds.  As a result, from here on out, I have more accurate ammo (most of my groups are now 1-1/2" or less at 25 yds with the right powder -- before they were more in the 2-1/2" range, on average), and possibly less expense from not overworking the brass (I can't say for sure -- I have yet to wear out any brass and on some I am on my 13th to 15th reload).  Not to mention the fact that since I no longer fully size the brass, my reloading works much more smoothly.  That resizing die definitely puts 90% of the drag on the entire movement, and I have cut it down to a bare minimum.  Smooth, easy, and effortless, like butter.  Just how I like it.
It would be much simpler to just go out and buy the ammo.  That way, we could all "cut out the extra steps and do more shooting."  A friend of my wife was over one day, and thought I was crazy when she saw me melting some lead out back.  "Why don't you just go out and buy them?" she said.  She thought I was completely nuts.  I didn't even try to get her to understand.  She loves to do "scrapbooking," and I almost asked her why she just doesn't go out and buy the scrapbooks "ready made," and just paste her pictures on top of the printed ones. 
Using the Lee dies and getting them set up right isn't that big of a deal, for me at least, and is a one-time effort.  Maybe for you it would be.  I like tweaking my machines and getting them to work better -- I guess it is in my blood.  I enjoy it as much as the shooting.  Never thought I would when I started, but I do.  Using a FC die doesn't take any more time to use (once set up), and it saves on effort (the machine works much smoother, fewer primers flip sideways because the machine isn't as "jumpy", etc).  Overall time and effort pay off in the long run.  A win-win in my book.  I could just go out and buy the ammo, but I go to the extra effort to handload because I enjoy it!  And I enjoy better, more accurate ammo in the end.  I guess not everybody is like this, and simply cannot understand it.  To each their own.

[saddlebum]

First of all, I use a single stage press, (extra step). Second, you overlook all the other negatives mentioned in previous posts. If you think it works for you, by all means use it. The tried and true methods that reloaders have used for a hundred years to make accurate dependable ammo is good enough for me. If you like reinvented hammers and "tweeking" stuff that worked fine before, then go for it. I understand that some people like to tinker, even when it's not neccessary. It's fun for them. I only tinker to the point where I get the results I'm looking for and then go shooting. I never needed the potential headaches associated with a LFC die to achieve my goals. Sorry if I hurt your feelings...................
 

[azvaquero]

No feelings hurt, just trying to help.  If you're that worried about efficiency and doing things the easy way, by all means ditch the single stage press and get a progressive. 

[saddlebum]

BTW, since you referenced Veral Smith, you might want to look up his opinion of the LFC die. But then again.......his opinion might hurt your feelings too.
 
" The pistol die I can't say enough against to make me happy."
Veral Smith
 
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,205529.0.html

[azvaquero]

Let's see, so you were wondering about the FC die, thought about all the reasons why it might not work, asked Veral about it for a second opinion, he said he wasn't in favor of it because it might resize the bullet, and so you went right out and bought one?  Is that how it worked?  Just trying to understand the chronology and mentality here!

[saddlebum]

Don't give yourself a headache. If your that interested, check the date stamps on the posts. Then you can make up whatever you want that makes you feel better..............
 
Some time ago I asked an expert about LFC dies instead of relying on the dim whitted comments that float around on this forum. Veral just comfirmed my suspicions. And then I ran accross the Mtn. Molds post. I saved myself a little money and some wasted time by not buying the Ronco version of a crimping die that has a high potential for catastrophe, and does not show any better results than using proper standard reloading methods. (when it works right)
 Hope my "mentality" is satisfactory.............
 
 
(The "dim whitted" remark was not aimed at you. Your new and your posts were pretty well thought out.)
 
 

[azvaquero]

Not a problem then.  Enjoy your reloading and shooting.

[saddlebum]

GOOD!!
 
Welcome to GBO, enjoy your time here and don't pay any attention to me. Most folks here, (like Lloyd above), don't like me anyway. I have that affect on people.........
All the best to you and yours.

[Lloyd Smale]

who or what made you think ive got anything agianst you personaly? To be honest i dont even remember your name from any older posts. I tend to tell it like it is and am opinionated but personaly think thats a good thing because i dont post opions based on what veral or anyone else thats considered an expert. I base my opinions on actually shooting guns myself. If you felt i stepped on your toes in some previous post I appologize but i can gurantee you one thing. I dont EVER walk away from this computer with any personal feelings about anyone. Well maybe theres one or two that i get sick of there bs occasionaly but i most just laugh that off too.

GOOD!!
 
Welcome to GBO, enjoy your time here and don't pay any attention to me. Most folks here, (like Lloyd above), don't like me anyway. I have that affect on people.........
All the best to you and yours.

[saddlebum]

Mr. Smale, forgive me if I got the wrong impression. It's no big deal to me but I was refering to the comment in your post #9 that says, "I tend to agree with him and its not easy as i dont care for him much." I thought I was, "him", in that statement. I thought you were one of the people I have some how offended in the past with my odd sense of humor, smart alleck remarks, or politically incorrect straight forward way of speaking. What I said in my previous post, mentioning your name was more about me than you. Maybe I have a little "red headed step-child" syndrome or something from constantly being trolled by a few members that are easily offended by someone who confronts them......ANYWAY!.....Sorry if I got the wrong impression.   

[AtlLaw]

my odd sense of humor, smart alleck remarks, or politically incorrect straight forward way of speaking.

You mean those qualities are out of the ordinary!?      If they are, you ain't the only odd one 'round here 'bouts!   
 

Maybe I have a little "red headed step-child" syndrome or something from constantly being trolled...

And just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!   
 
Actually, the thought of using a FCD on a cast bullet never occurred to me.      I like them, but I only use them on jacketed bullets loaded for my leverguns.   

[saddlebum]

"And just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you! "
 
THAT'S funny! Just when I was starting to sleep through the night again, you have to say that!   
 
Thanks for that!.........

[Lloyd Smale]

nope it wasnt you i was refering to. By the way i wrote the book on not being politicaly correct! I tell it like it is and am brutely honest and dont have much respect for someone who isnt. 

Mr. Smale, forgive me if I got the wrong impression. It's no big deal to me but I was refering to the comment in your post #9 that says, "I tend to agree with him and its not easy as i dont care for him much." I thought I was, "him", in that statement. I thought you were one of the people I have some how offended in the past with my odd sense of humor, smart alleck remarks, or politically incorrect straight forward way of speaking. What I said in my previous post, mentioning your name was more about me than you. Maybe I have a little "red headed step-child" syndrome or something from constantly being trolled by a few members that are easily offended by someone who confronts them......ANYWAY!.....Sorry if I got the wrong impression.