DG Hunting

[Qaz]

 I was watching one of Jim Shockey's hunting shows the other day. He was hunting lion with a Black Powder rifle, shot a old male lion with one shot at less than 50yds. He and the PH were very pleased with the whole thing, but it took a while for the lion to die. I did not understand why he did not reload and shoot again. I didn't know BP rifles carried the minimum ft/lbs that most of the countries in SA require. I feel that this was a stunt more than a hunt.

[us920669]

A modern in-line, .45 or .50, would be plenty.  SCI Record Book XI, which is more than a few years old, has ML entries from Botswana, Zambia and Zimbabwe.  There are also entries for handgun, bow and crossbow.  I'm sure the PH was keeping a close eye on the lion until it positively expired.

[don heath]

Averae 'down time' for lion with a bow during the trials to legalise bow hunting in Zimbabwe was 9 minutes....and we still legalised it  . I have guided several clients using BP guns on lion, buff and elephant... Shooting a lion with a decent .50 ML is much less of a stunt than shooting an elephant with a bow or BP rifle.
 
If you want a lion to go down hard you need to use a reasonably high velocity round (like a .375 H&H). They are very suceptable to nervous shock and my 9,3 x62 is far more effective than a .458 Win for instance.
 
On the other hand, I would have reloaded...had a client loose the No 1 elephant with a bow because I had to put a bullet into it (so it was a rifle kill not a bow kill)...so why not make sure that even if the lion is 99% dead you can put another bullet into you if it finds the direction and courage to charge?   

[Grumulkin]

In my opinion hunting with a bow or a muzzleloader is not a stunt if said hunter hunts with either no backup or with a PH who is also carrying a bow or a muzzleloader.


I watched a show quite a while ago in which a "bow hunter" shot a grizzly.  The bear ran away.  Did the bow hunter go after it?  Yes, the next day armed with a shotgun which is a good thing since the bear wasn't dead and charged.

[ironglow]

Don;
  When you said;
    " If you want a lion to go down hard you need to use a reasonably high velocity round (like a .375 H&H). They are very suceptable to nervous shock and my 9,3 x62 is far more effective than a .458 Win for instance".
 
    What is the difference here Don, is it the velocity ?

[don heath]

ironglow - Yes it is simply velocity. As was proved back before the 1st world war, bullets impacting at velocities above 2240fps cause explosive wounds in soft tissue (ie hydrostatic shock). For some reason Cats are particularly vulnerable to this - much more so than people I think. I have never seen much difference in performance on buffalo between a .375 H&H and a .458 Win, or a .416 and a .470 for that matter. Buffalo only react noticably to a bullet strike when you hit them with something very big and very fast- .500 A square, .500 Jeffery etc. Up to those calibres..if you break the spine they fall down, if you hit the heart they run off a short way, if you poke a hole through the lungs they run a looong way. Lion and leopard spin round in a frenzy when hit with a HV round even if the strike isn't immediately fatal.
 
For elephant, I have seen them shot up with a soviet 12,7 AA macine gun...hit hit the cows and calves quite hard but didn't have noticably greater effect on the big bulls than .375.
 
BTW the standard reference work on hydrostatic shock and traumatic wounding effect that follows on from LeGards work is 'Manual of Small Arms' (any of the editions between 1920 and 1938)

[ironglow]

  Thanks Don;
  I always like to get info from someone who has "been there, done that"..first hand info is always good.  I learned something new from this thread..thanks                                                                             
                                                                                              Ironglow

[don heath]

If the link works...I R not very technical- here is a serialised interview I did for Brit TV on dangerous game that has somehow ended up on you tube    With typical african efficiency, I cannot get it to work but friends in America have all commented!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6JpcBF_zBY&feature=relmfu

[ironglow]

 Thanks Don,
  Obviously this is wisdom that can only be gained in the hard knocks school. Thanks for sharing..
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Thanks Don;
   This is "inside information" which obviously can only be earned in the "school of hard knocks"...thanks for sharing !
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[RevJim]

 Greetings Mr Heath, I enjoyed the video link very much. I am very interested in what ammo you use in a 9.3x62 for such work? I have had the priviledge of hunting South Africa and Namibia plains game, and only used the Barnes XBT in handloads, 300 winmag, 340 weatherby, 35 Whelen Improved ( very similar to the 9.3x62 btw) I am planning on using that 285 mega Lapua ammo on a big boar. Just curious.
 PS I was pleased to hear you imply on your video that killing the clients lion was not your goal ( as one fellow has done on his videos for sale) I have a few of his ____Death videos and I always get a kick how he will walk right into the buff/lion/hippo, instigate a charge, shoot the beast with his big double gun, and then look in the camera and say "he charged me", ha, what a goof! I know that when I go on a guided hunt, "I" want to shoot my own trophies, at least the first shot! lol Thank you sir. Rev Jim Knight

[don heath]

In a 9,3 x62 (or .375 flanged for that matter) I like
 
Lion- Norma Oryx
Buffalo - Swift A frame
Elephant and Hippo- Woodleigh solids
 
In my 9,3 for knock about work I use Speer 270grn loaded to 2300fps. Kills everything from Eland down just fine.
 
The sift, Oryx and Norma solids will shoot into a 3" group if you grab a hand full of mixed rounds and fire say 10. The Speers shoot an  inch or so higher (or would open up a mixed group to 4". The Oryx are extremely accurate from my rifle and that is what I Zero with. (sub 1" 5 shot groups give confidence). The woodleigh solids are not too bad (about 2" group and the Swift about 2 " as well.
 
Norma 286grn Oryx worked well out of my 9,3 on a huge boar in poland this year. The lapua should work just as well.
 
 

[RevJim]

 Thank you sir, good to know these things. I am surprised to hear the Speer 270 does so well for you, many feel it is too soft. It shot very well out of a kreiger barreled Mod 70 I once had. I like the looks of a 9.3x62, especially with the big 286 softnosed ammo.
  I would imagine the Barnes 286 TSX bullet would work well on buffalo, have you seen anyone use it in a 9.3x62?

[don heath]

9,3 is too short of powder capacity to get the best out of the barnes bullets. The 286grn cannot be driven fast enough to work optimally - and so the 250grn Barnes is in fact better...which is why I use the Swift. They are not the most accurate bullets on the market but they shoot well enough for buff and shoot to the same sight setting as the speer 270grn, Norma Oryx and Wooodleigh solids.
 
As I grew up with a peep sight on the cocking piece of my first three big game rifles (a Bruno 7x57, a Model A Mauser in 9,3 and a H&H .404) I very quickly learned the importance of having one sight setting applicable to all ammo and all situations. These days my Leupold 1-4 has had the adjustment rings super glued in place. That has held up for the last 10 years of African roads. 
 
I get good results with the speer becasue I load them to shoot about 1" above the poa of the 286grn loads ...ie Can just aim on out to about 200m- and to get that poi is a light load (2300ish fps) At moderate velocity they work very well. I have seen people load them up to 2500fps, but then they come appart in style when you shoot anything - even an impala at close range.

[RevJim]

 Thank you sir, makes sense to slow it down. I will probably load the Barnes 250 TTSX or the Nosler 250 Accubond for our elk here in Utah. I like the big fat 285 softnoses in factory rounds, just seems right with this rifle. We Americans love tinjering with our rifles, as you know. We have more time to shoot than the opportunity to hunt here, ha, short seasons and al. Its one of the reasons I like to shoot exotics/hogs during the year. Have a great day sir. RevJim