1863 Springfield?

[lefty41]

A friend of mine showed me an original 1863 Springfield (trapdoor?). Does anyone know the calibers it used? Am I right that it was a BPCR rifle?

[AtlLaw]

An "original" 1863 Springfield would not be a BPCR as they were all produced as .58 cal ML's.  Hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber, I believe a lot were converted to the 50-70 after the War for Southern Independence.

[Pat/Rick]

From what I've read, Erskin Allin (Springfield Armory) converted and chambered them in .58 rimfire, and these eventually became the trapdoor action, .50-70 and .45-70, yes BPCR's. 1861 muskets were the first donors for these, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised to read about 1863's being used. Not being an expert by any means, again this is from what I've read. (Guns of the American West, Dennis Adler  specificly).
 
 Many, many muskets were converted and used as R&D basis of conversions, after the cartridge era got started. Alot were converted to single shot muzzle loading shotguns as well. These probably mostly went to folks without much money for hunting during reconstruction and the slim years after the civil war (war of northern aggression).

[lefty41]

Forgot to memtion that barrel did look to be musket. Didn't have light with me, but could not see any rifling. It is a breech loader, however. I will contact him and see if I can take some photos and post them.

[AtlLaw]

The 1863 was a "rifled musket."
 
If it is a breach loader it is NOT an original 1863.  If its markings are appropriate for an 1863 it is a conversion.  There was more then one type of conversion, but the most I have seen were Allin.  Probably because I believe it was officially adopted by the Army.
 
The breach block does open forward like a trapdoor doesn't it?  There was also a conversion that opened from the side.
 
Just because it isn't an "original" 1863 doesn't mean it doesn't have any value.  The conversions are collectable in their own right.
 
If you get a chance, stick a ruler over the bore.  Just outta curiosity I'd like to know if its diameter is .50 or .58.  If it is a .58 then I should think it would be the 1st Allin Conversion of 1861 Springfields started in 1864 as I remember.
 
Wait a minute!  I know what youse guys (my yankee accent) is thinking!  No, I don't remember because I was there!     I seem to remember from my studies when I was satisfying an interest in conversions!     Anyway, the improved, 50-70, 2d Allen conversion was in what... 1866?   
 
OH!  How many barrel bands!?

[Pat/Rick]

Atlaw, I believe your date of 1866 is correct for the start of trapdoor conversions at Springfield. I haven't really done a whole lot of research for the early years before. There was a whole lot of playing catch up at the time I would imagine. Would have been interesting to see. I would wager that there was quite a rush to keep the federal contracts going after........
 
 
A very good friend of mine that is from your area (GA), and is now here in WA, has quite a few Burnside cartridges that he found while fishing "back home". He's got a few other things like buttons, expended rounds, etc that he's found as well, but the burnside cartridges were about as pristine as they come. Powder was gone, but the little paper (poster board?) disc do dads were still in the casing.

[AtlLaw]

There's a lot of relics all around here.  When I-75 was being built through Atlanta everything you can imagine was turned up.  I used to have quite a bit of stuff, cannon and Minnie balls, grapeshot and the like, but it's all disappeared over the years.   
 
Nowadays, If you even think of going into someplace like Kennesaw Mtn. National Battlefield with a metal detector the Rangers will jump on you like a duck on a June Bug!   

[Pat/Rick]

Metal detecting is almost a private property thing anymore. I can understand some locations being off limits but.......... We're not supposed to pick up points along the river (columbia)at all either, at least here in the gorge scenic area. They're well scattered but findable. I sure would like to detect around old Fort Rains and others here in the Cascades, but what time would have to be served, or fine paid. Artifacts are a wonderment to be sure. Regards.

[lefty41]

My friends rifle is a trapdoor model 1868 Springfield made in 1870. It is a 50-70 and is only missing the cleaning rod. Has the 1870 U.S. marked on the trapdoor.
Thanks for your help and info.

[Rangr44]

A friend of mine showed me an original 1863 Springfield (trapdoor?). Does anyone know the calibers it used? Am I right that it was a BPCR rifle?

Nope.  "BPCR" = Black Powder CARTRIDGE Rifle, and an original 1863 US Springfield was a muzzleloading (caplock/percussion) rifled musket in .58 caliber, a Civil War era gun.
 
"Trapdoor's" are both later (1873) US Springfield's originally so manufactured, and conversions of some earlier muskets to Trapdoors (aka: Allin/Springfield Trapdoors).
All Trapdoor's fire metallic cartridges - the last musket conversions were lined to .50 cal; 1973 & later were .45-70's.
 
If the rifle you saw had been converted, there's no reason it couldn't be used for BPCR competition with proper sights.
 
.
 
 

[StrawHat]

As has been pointed out, after the CW the Army was saddled with the task of reequipping to the breech loading system but funds were not appropriated by congress for the task.  (Sound familiar?)  So Allin came up with a modification of another system and found favor with the powers that be.  The first conversions, in 1865, were from 58 ML to 58 RF.  By 1866, it was decided to decrease the bore size to 50 caliber and use a central fire cartridge.  The barrels were bored out and a stepped sleeve was soldered in place.  The breech was reworked to fire the CF cartridge and the Second Allin was used for a while.  In 1868, a seperate breech was built to accept barrels.  Some were sleeved musket barrels and others were built for the new firearm.  By 1873 the need for a smaller, flatter shooting caliber was realized and a new cartridge, the 45-70 was developed.  All parts for the Model 1873 (and subsequent models) were built new, no more CW parts were available.
 
A more thorough explanation and model description can be found here,
 
http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/
 
After the various models were declared surplus, (and sometimes before), some were transformed into "sporting" rifles and others were converted to carbines.  I have seen some rebarreled to other cartridges based on the 45-70 in particular the 40-65.
 
Gemmer and others reworked them to resemble the plains rifle of the day.  Hoolywood also used them in a lot of ways making them resemble anything from flintlocks to the Arabians rifles used by the Camel Cavalry.
 
I have reworked several into very good shooters.