Author Topic: Looking at stepping up to a Prohunter (Read 1466 times)

Camp Cook · « **on:** March 09, 2012, 08:03:19 PM »

I have been shooting Contenders carbines for over 17 years now and have 3 Gen 1 s/s Contender frames, 1 s/s G2 frame and 11 carbine barrels chambered from 22LR - 45-70 - 50cal muzzle loader.

I have been thinking about stepping up to a Encore/Prohunter for a while now and have found a like new fired max 40 times 28" barreled s/s Prohunter in 7mm-08 it has the black flex stock.

Only thing that is stopping me from buying it is I have been hearing about these long barrels whipping so much that the best accuracy you can get is 1 1/2" with 3 shot groups @ 100 yards.

I would appreciate any thoughts on this issue or even just thoughts on these rifles.

One other thought has anyone had one of these fluted barrels shortened/re-crowned if so where there any issues with shortening a fluted barrel?

My goal is to eventually acquire a 22" 375H&H barrel load it with 250gr TTSX or 260gr Accubonds @ 2650fps to get performance levels 1/2 way between my 375JDJ = 260gr Accubonds @ 2300fps and my 375RUM = 260gr Accubonds @ 3020fps...

Grumulkin · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:05:12 AM »

Yes, a lot of whip out of this Pro Hunter barrel.

That said, I did have a Pro Hunter barrel I couldn't get to do better than 1 inch consistently at 100 yards but I very much doubt that barrel whip was the reason.

As for shortening a Pro Hunter barrel; yes, you can do it but I think it look kind of dumb with flutes ending at the muzzle. Also, why go to the expense of buying a Pro Hunter barrel and shortening it when an already shorter Encore barrel will shoot just as well? A better plan would to sell the 28 inch barrel to someone who wants one and then get what you want.

kynardsj · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:30:07 AM »

+1 on buying the whole outfit and replacing the barrel if it doesn't shoot like you want it to. The last two barrels I bought were 20". They have been the most accurate for me and as I hunt a lot from blinds they're easy to handle inside one. As long as you aren't shooting a caliber with a lot of powder like a magnum a shorter barrel will do fine. 308's and 7mm-08's shoot very well in a 20 inch gun. A lot of law enforcement snipers are shooting 20 inch bolt guns.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:35:49 AM »

Well that is very good accuracy one cannot complain about that...

I'm in BC, Canada these kinds of rifles and their barrels are not very common here the Encore/Prohunters are more common than the Contenders but still hard to find.

I bought my last barrel from Ed's Contenders and had to pay a US FFL dealer/exporter and a Canadian importer an extra $175.00 just to get it across the border.

So living with an shortened fluted barrel though it maybe fugly maybe cheaper than selling/buying another barrel.

When I get the 375H&H I plan on looking for a 26" non-fluted s/s Encore barrel it will probably be coming from Ed's as well so I am looking at tacking on another $175.00 to the price you guys pay just to get it here.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:42:16 AM »

since there are a lot more angles, a fluted barrel is stiffer than a plain barrel. plus, if you reload, you can get a lot of zip out of that long barrel.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2012, 04:11:22 AM »

I know it's commonly said that fluting makes a barrel stiffer but for me it doesn't pass the sniff test. Fluting would increase barrel surface area and hasten cooling a bit but I can't see that taking away metal is going to make a barrel stiffer. At best, fluting will take away a little barrel weight and hasten cooling without harming stiffness a lot.

Perhaps there is confusion with the stiffening in only one dimension corrugation makes in sheet metal. Of course, corrugation of sheet metal takes no metal away but rather for a two dimensional object actually put in more metal per a given surface area.

As for cutting down the Pro Hunter barrel; I would shoot it first. You might like it the way it is. An Encore with a 28 inch barrel is still shorter than a bolt action rifle with a shorter barrel.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2012, 06:56:04 AM »

Quote from: Grumulkin on March 10, 2012, 04:11:22 AM

I know it's commonly said that fluting makes a barrel stiffer but for me it doesn't pass the sniff test. Fluting would increase barrel surface area and hasten cooling a bit but I can't see that taking away metal is going to make a barrel stiffer. At best, fluting will take away a little barrel weight and hasten cooling without harming stiffness a lot.

Perhaps there is confusion with the stiffening in only one dimension corrugation makes in sheet metal. Of course, corrugation of sheet metal takes no metal away but rather for a two dimensional object actually put in more metal per a given surface area.

As for cutting down the Pro Hunter barrel; I would shoot it first. You might like it the way it is. An Encore with a 28 inch barrel is still shorter than a bolt action rifle with a shorter barrel.

here's some info on it. it's about creating more angles. even drilling holes in metal makes it stiffer.
http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/barrel_length_fluting.htm

Camp Cook · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:36:01 PM »

Quote

As for cutting down the Pro Hunter barrel; I would shoot it first. You might like it the way it is. An Encore with a 28 inch barrel is still shorter than a bolt action rifle with a shorter barrel.

I understand what you are saying I have bolt action rifles with 20"/21"/22"/24"/26" barrels and my Contender carbines have barrels from 14" - 23".

My idea for acquiring a Encore/Pro Hunter is to have a short barreled fast handling carbine that can handle cartridges/pressures that my Contenders can't I really do not have an interest in hunting/packing a long barreled single shot rifle around I'll grab one of my bolt guns instead.

JustaShooter · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2012, 04:52:40 PM »

Quote from: BUGEYE on March 10, 2012, 06:56:04 AM

Quote from: Grumulkin on March 10, 2012, 04:11:22 AM
I know it's commonly said that fluting makes a barrel stiffer but for me it doesn't pass the sniff test. Fluting would increase barrel surface area and hasten cooling a bit but I can't see that taking away metal is going to make a barrel stiffer. At best, fluting will take away a little barrel weight and hasten cooling without harming stiffness a lot.
here's some info on it. it's about creating more angles. even drilling holes in metal makes it stiffer.
http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/barrel_length_fluting.htm

Hogwash. Drilling holes in metal weakens it, fluting a barrel reduces the stiffness. From the website you linked to (emphasis mine):

Quote

If we compare a fluted barrel to one that is not fluted, both weighing the same, the fluted barrel is stiffer. This is because the fluted barrel will be of a larger diameter than the unfluted barrel of the same weight and length. Increasing the diameter of a barrel greatly increases its rigidity. Fluting may also allow for a longer barrel, if weight is a consideration. Another advantage to fluting is the increased cooling rate of the barrel because of the greater amount of surface area exposed to the air.

Just a Shooter

BUGEYE · « **Reply #9 on:** March 11, 2012, 03:13:55 AM »

lived next door to a retired engineer for many years. he said the more angles you introduce, the stiffer the tool.

kynardsj · « **Reply #10 on:** March 11, 2012, 03:32:04 AM »

Think of tin roofing. If it were flat it would be very weak and flap in every breeze. But when it's corrugated or v crimp it becomes strong. Same as a piece of paper. No folds and it hangs limp. Put a fold or two in it and you can hold it out by one end. All that being said IMHO is that a fluted barrel reduces weight while retaining strength. As far as the whip or barrel harmonics of a longer barrel, all rifle barrels have a certain amount of harmonics, you adjust your sights to compensate for this and if you have the right load then you have accuracy. All this is IMHO.

bull · « **Reply #11 on:** March 11, 2012, 04:49:00 AM »

I could be wrong, but I believe that the comparison between a fluted barrel and a non fluted barrel are when of equal weight and length, the larger diameter, fluted barrel will be more rigid.

As for pro hunter barrels themselves, I don't see any advantage over a standard encore barrel. Just a marketing scheme to sell an upgraded item at a higher price. I personally do not care for the "flex tech" stocks. I like walnut, or even a laminate. But I don't like them squishy ones.

Camp Cook, do what you need to do to get what you want. That is the name of the game. And yes they can cut down a fluted barrel, just takes a little more and it might look a little funny at first. But if it shoots the way you want it to, then you're good. And remember thateven with a 26" barrel an encore is about the same length as a bolt gun with about a 22" barrel or less. I'm playing the same scenarios myself with a new 26" .375jdj barrel. Do I want it 26" or 22" or 21" etc. Good luck

bull

BUGEYE · « **Reply #12 on:** March 11, 2012, 06:20:07 AM »

Quote from: JustaShooter on March 10, 2012, 04:52:40 PM

Quote from: BUGEYE on March 10, 2012, 06:56:04 AM
Quote from: Grumulkin on March 10, 2012, 04:11:22 AM
I know it's commonly said that fluting makes a barrel stiffer but for me it doesn't pass the sniff test. Fluting would increase barrel surface area and hasten cooling a bit but I can't see that taking away metal is going to make a barrel stiffer. At best, fluting will take away a little barrel weight and hasten cooling without harming stiffness a lot.
here's some info on it. it's about creating more angles. even drilling holes in metal makes it stiffer.
http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/barrel_length_fluting.htm

Hogwash. Drilling holes in metal weakens it, fluting a barrel reduces the stiffness. From the website you linked to (emphasis mine):

Quote
If we compare a fluted barrel to one that is not fluted, both weighing the same, the fluted barrel is stiffer. This is because the fluted barrel will be of a larger diameter than the unfluted barrel of the same weight and length. Increasing the diameter of a barrel greatly increases its rigidity. Fluting may also allow for a longer barrel, if weight is a consideration. Another advantage to fluting is the increased cooling rate of the barrel because of the greater amount of surface area exposed to the air.

Just a Shooter

I went back and read a very long tretise on barrels on varmint al's page, and it is indeed like you and bull say. the larger barrel that is fluted down to the same weight as the smaller is stiffer, but not if they start out at the same weight. I stand corrected.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #13 on:** March 11, 2012, 08:42:55 AM »

I was at a gun show yesterday spoke with the gunsmith I use he told me $60.00 to cut and re-crown the barrel.

Can't beat that...

So I am very close now to pulling the plug and snapping up this 7mm-08 Pro-hunter.

I also prefer laminate stocks/fore ends and will eventually buy a black/gray set from GunStocksInc for this rifle...

Now to start looking for a stainless steel 375H&H Encore barrel here in Canada if I can't find one I'll get ahold of Ed's Contenders again and pay the price for getting it imported.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #14 on:** March 12, 2012, 10:55:26 PM »

Made an offer he countered = $60 difference.

Now I have to decide if I need/want this rifle I am very happy with my Contenders/bolt rifles so now I have to decide if I need a Pro Hunter or do I rebarrel a bolt rifle my grandfather (now past on) gave to me appr 30 years ago...

I have another question has anyone ever rechambered a 7mm-08 to 284 Win?

yooper77 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 13, 2012, 02:02:18 AM »

Quote from: Camp Cook on March 12, 2012, 10:55:26 PM

I have another question has anyone ever rechambered a 7mm-08 to 284 Win?

Re-chambering from 7mm-08 Remington to 284 Winchester is usually set for guns with magazine restrictions.

You would be better off re-chambering from 7mm-08 Remington to 280 Remington Ackley Improved.

yooper77

Camp Cook · « **Reply #16 on:** March 13, 2012, 02:41:18 AM »

Hmmm I'll have to look into that I didn't realize that a 280 AI would clean up a 7mm-08 chamber thought the 280 case was not wide enough to do that.

yooper77 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 13, 2012, 02:57:58 AM »

Yes, won't be a problem. Plus 280 Remington brass would be cheaper to make or find compared to 284 Winchester brass.

Hey, what length have you settle on for the cut and re-crown 28" Pro Hunter barrel?

If I ever picked up a 28" Pro Hunter barrel I would have it cut and re-crowned to 23"

yooper77

Camp Cook · « **Reply #18 on:** March 13, 2012, 03:41:52 AM »

I shoot/load for a 6mm-284 and just sold my Rem 700 LSS in 280 Rem a year or so ago to a buddy that needed it more than I did so I have several hundred new brass for each sitting on the shelf.

I would definately prefer to use the 280 brass and would like to save the 284's for the 6mm-284 like you said they are definitely harder too find.
I was thinking 22" but would have to have the rifle in my hand before I decide.

I just found this on barel lengths = if I stayed with the 7mm-08 I'd go 20" - 22" if I go to the 280AI I'd go 23"...

Quote

T/C Pro Hunter test:

A couple weeks ago, I performed a single test on 5 different T/C Pro Hunter rifles that literally cut their group size in half. Before I tell you what I did though, here is a list of the guns/calibers/loads used in this seemingly simple test...

All guns had the 28" fluted T/C Pro Hunter barrel...

All guns had he that cannot be mentioned's oversize hinge pin, heavy duty locking bolt spring and 51 lb. hammer spring...

All guns had trigger jobs with the triggers being set from 2 1/2 to 3 lbs...

All guns were shooting factory ammo...

All guns were checked before testing to make sure the mounts were tight...

Here is a list of each caliber used in the test, along with the ammo and group size before/after. I will also point out that there were 2 3-shot groups fired from the bench at 100 yards before the test and 2 3-shot groups fired after the test with the average group size listed for a ruler reading of group size measured center to center...

1) 22-250 / 55 gr. Federal Premium / before - 1 3/4" / after - 3/4"...

2) 25/06 / 117 gr. Hornady Spire Point / before - 2" / after - 1"...

3) 7mm Rem. Mag. / 140 gr. Nosler Partition / before - 2 1/2" / after - 7/8"...

4) 308 / 150 gr. Remington Core-Lokt / before - 1 1/2" / after - 3/4"...

5) 300 Win. Mag. / 180 gr. Ballistic Silver Tip / before - 2" / after - 1"...

Okay, what was the ONLY thing done to these guns to cut their group size in half? I cut 5" off the barrel and recrowned the muzzle! Well, that may actually be two things but, it stands to reason that if you cut a barrel back, it automatically gets recrowned...

So why did these guns start shooting more like what they were suppose to with a 23" barrel instead of a 28" barrel? Excessive "whip" and "vibration" as well as a total change in "harmonics"...

Here is a simple test that you can do and one that I have shown many customers. Remove your barrel from the frame and put the barrel lug in a vice and lock it down good and tight. Put a lead pencil in the muzzle end of the barrel. The wood is soft and will NOT damage the rifling or crown. Make sure the fit is good and tight. Now take a piece of paper and anchor it in front of the barrel and to where it comes in contact with the pencil. Now, with just your thumb and index finger, see just how much you can "flex" the barrel. You can very easily move the barrel 1/2" in all directions and depending on the pressure applied, it is easy to make a circle over 1" in diameter just from the barrel having so much give to it...

I have put these barrels in a lathe and run the lathe at 1,000 rpm and have shown customers how easy these barrels flex or bend with just finger tip pressure. What do you think these same overly long barrels do when a round is fired down the bore? They flex pretty much the same way but, too fast for the eye to see it. A shorter barrel though, will still flex but, to a lesser degree...

These Encore barrels also have what is referred to as a "step taper" and this too is a big cause of barrel flex. This is why that, when I build a barrel by barrel stubbing, I only use barrels that have a "straight taper" as this is what can be referred to as a self supporting structure. It does NOT whip around or flex like what the step tapered barrels do and with the vibrations lessened and harmonics dampened, accuracy potential of the barrel goes way up...

Will cutting 5" off of every barrel automatically make your barrel a better shooter? I cannot say 100% that it will but, I have yet to see one that it did not help at least to a certain degree and some more than others...

Let me also point out that something else that was noticed was "loose" spots in the bore. With all 5 of the rifles tested, when running a jag with a tight fitting patch down the bore, there was at least one if not two loose spots in the bore, with the first one usually at the 23 to 24" mark and then the second one at around 27". I cannot say for sure but, I believe this is why these barrels shot much better because of the elimination of these loose spots. This is something that you cannot "fix" in these long barrels and the only way to deal with it is to live with it being like it is or cut it off, recrown and go from there...

Velocity loss when going from a 28" barrel down to 23"? I only had time to shoot the 25-06 and 308 over the chronograph and total velocity loss for both was less than 60 fps.. I was expecting more but, and this is only my opinion, I feel the oversize bore closer to the muzzle end of the barrel was the culprit. If the bore was uniform from end to end or the muzzle end of the bore had a slight constriction to it, I would have expected a greater velocity loss. The 25-06 really surprised me as this cartridge performs admirably in a long barrel and shows it's true velocity potential. Not so in the last couple of Encore barrels I tested...

It's things like this that show the p-poor quality and design standards of T/C. It's no wonder Mike (censored word) and I have so much gray hair....

(Banned site)

Camp Cook · « **Reply #19 on:** March 13, 2012, 07:59:04 AM »

Oh the drama just made a counter offer...

Ok so I'm cheap...

Here is a link to a thread that has a pic of the look I want with a cut off Prohunter barrel.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=228948.0

After reading the thread I called Boyds to see if they are still making Encore stocks they aren't right now but the fellow told me that they are looking at making them again in the next couple of months.

Would go awesome with my Contenders...

yooper77 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 13, 2012, 05:11:20 PM »

I remember that post, and I do like how it looked cut down to 23" with a nice crown job.

yooper77

Camp Cook · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2012, 02:48:20 AM »

Update I've now had the opportunity to closely inspect a few Encore/Prohunter rifles with the flex stocks.

After closely checking them out I have decided to back out on buying the 7mm-08 Prohunter and now have an offer in on just a stainless steel Encore frame.

I figured I didn't have a use for a 7mm-08 and really only want a non-fluted 375 cal barrel I also had no use for the flex stocks wanting black/gray laminate stocks to match my Contender carbines instead so I am now thinking of building the rifle.

I'm also now looking for a 21" - 22" non-fluted s/s barrel chambered in a non-belted 376 Steyr this should give me performance levels with 250gr TTSX/260gr Accubonds @ 2600fps that is almost exactly between my 375JDJ & 375RUM.

Will take a little longer to put together but it will be exactly what I am looking for when I am finished.

I also found at my local outdoor store appr 800 284 Win Winchester brass and th ekicker was there wasn't a single 280 Rem go figure...

CC