Author Topic: Question for veterans..  (Read 699 times)

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Offline ironglow

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Question for veterans..
« on: March 13, 2012, 12:16:00 AM »
  When we entered basic training and made our way to the ranges, instructors used to say something to this effect;
      " I don't care how much you have hunted or shot guns, we will reteach you and those who have never shot can often be better than those who have."
     In my experience, it didn't work out that way.  On the range, the experienced shooters, mostly 'country boys', seemed to rise to the top.
    What was your experience ?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Savage .250

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 12:50:10 AM »
Never heard anything even close to that.    As far as raising to the top . If you`ve got it ..
 ............you`ve got it.     Country boy or other wise.     :)
" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2012, 01:18:22 AM »
being in what others called that chicken-s**t outfit, we only went to the range one time.
there was a lot of flinching from the city boys.
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Offline DANNY-L

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2012, 02:01:10 AM »
I could definently tell the difference between who has been around guns and who hadn't. The D.I's did a real good job training those that were actually a bit afraid to shoot. By the end of 8wks everyone handled and used weapons as though they been around them all thier life. Our D.I said something like this at the beginning,"I know some of you were brought up with rifles and shotguns but I will teach you the way it'll be done here"

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2012, 02:39:41 AM »
I went through Army Basic in 87, and Marine Corps Boot Camp in 90 ... and Navy Officer's School in 2006. Yeah, glutton for punishment. I heard that phrase in 87, but I'll say the AR was so rare on the street back then that it was like learning all over for me, and I'd been shooting as far back as I can recall. The Marine Corps KD range is still the best marksmanship course out there; it'll improve anyone's accuracy. The final result in both experiences though, those who were already proficient were just more proficient, and many who had never touched a rifle before, were proficient as well. If you came in an 85, and we moved you to 95 that doesn't seem like much compared to the guy who came in 0 and moved to 90 - but the 95 is still the better shot.
held fast

Offline Land_Owner

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2012, 03:01:27 AM »
First, it was a windy, cold and rainy day in March 1974.  Second, it was only part of one day.  They marched us to a range, put a never before handled semi-auto (1911 45 ACP) in one hand and a loaded magazine in the other.  On command "Commence Fire" we aimed off-hand at 25 yard targets.  Some shot their neighbor's target rather than their own.  Some didn't know the difference.  Most did.  On command, Cease Fire, we retrieved and scored targets.  I later received a pistol medal to wear at ceremonies. 

They immediately marched us to the 100 yard range, put a never before handled automatic (M-16) and a loaded clip in our hands.  On command, we shot off-hand.  On command, we quit.  Through iron sights and those conditions I received a ribbon with an "S" on it.  Much later, after Basic, I shot the M-16 again under better conditions and received a rifle metal. 

Basic Range was so "antiseptic", so rushed, so immaterial, so stupid, and made to seem unnecessary.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 04:43:14 AM »
  I was probably a bit earlier than most here Army 1955  out for a while so had to redo basic in 1962.  First hitch M1 Garrand, second hitch M14. I liked the M14 better and was one of only 3 to fire expert.  Our range was up to 500 yards in 1955 (KD range) then 550 meters in 1962 with "sneaky Petes" (silhouette) targets.
  Started my grandson (ironglowjr) with a Marlin .22 at about 13 or 14.  He was good enough that he was chosen often for overwatch along with one other man in their Spec Ops unit in Iraq.  The other man is now a sniper instructor at Quantico.
  Both were country raised hunters.
    I did teach my grandson a few "country hunting" tricks, which he said helped in certain situations in the sandbox, (but I firmly believe it was prayer which brought him through it).
   
   I agree with TN, the new "Mattel" rifles don't exactly square with most sporting rifles, and I am old enough that adopting an AR is strange for me.  However, my grandson and many other younger veterans are completely comfortable with the ARs and even prefer them for their varmint/predator rifles.
  Guess I'm just an old dog that doesn't adapt to new tricks (rifles). ;)   :D 
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline magooch

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2012, 05:53:21 AM »
I felt very fortunate not to have been shot at Navy boot camp and the Air Force boot camp.  Some of the troops there didn't know which end of the gun was which.  Our qualifying sessions later on at our assigned bases were much better and actually enjoyable.   
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2012, 07:55:30 AM »
In AF basic 1968, they handed me a never before handled M-16.  I listened while they explained how it worked in the class room.  I practiced loading the dummy rounds and working the action.  When we got to the range they had us shoot our 5 sight in rounds, then go stand by our targets.  Instructors came by, circling a shooters group and telling them the corrections to make on their sights.  When he came to mine, he took a good look.  Then counted the five different edges on the one big hole.  He ripped my target down and said "Report to the range officer".  Scared this little airman half to death.  I did as told.  Range officer looked at the target and said, "Airman you can shoot, you don't need any further training, Your released go back to your squadron and let them know I released you".  I took my target to the squadron and reported what I had been told.  They gave me the rest of the day off to sit in the day room and watch TV.  So I never got to finish shooting in Basic, and did nothing more than qualify.  First time I shot at my first duty station they disqualified me due to not being able to count the number of shots needed to qualify.  There was just one big hole, in the center of the target, and a single hole out on the edge (someone else shot my target). 

For my reshoot a week later, I brought a magic marker and drew 10 small Xs on my target.  I shot five shots at each X.  I explained to the instructor what had happened, and he remembered it.  So he allowed me to modify my target.  At the end of the day I had my marksmanship Ribbon.  When they were scoring our targets they asked me where I learned to shoot.  I told them hunting squirrels back in Tennessee, using a .22 with peep sights.  The head instructor TSGT Furgason, actually wrote it in my Training records that I was a "Tennessee Squirrel Hunter".  Man did I catch a bunch of crap every time I got sent to the range after that.  Furgy and I became good friends and hunting partners after that.  We kept in touch till after he retired, then we just kind of lost touch with each other.  In 20 years I only shot the M-16 at the range 8 times. 

Years later after I became an NCO, I had to qualify with a pistol.  We shot a Smith & Wesson .38, at 15 and 25 yards.  (At that time I owned a S&W .38 and a .357, I hunted Deer with the .357)  At the end of the day I got the little pistol added to my Marksmanship ribbon.  I shot the .38 five times, and the .45 twice, during my career.

What made the difference was that I was an NRA shooting instructor, and I shot at a range every weekend.  I instructed before and after going into the AF.  The M-16 felt like a toy gun to me.  I got into shooting with the CMP also before I joined the AF.  My Dad's best friend had been a Marine and he started taking me to the CMP shoots. I really liked shooting with a Garand.  I also hunted regularly.
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Offline rockbilly

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2012, 08:04:30 AM »
I found that most of the guys that had some experience with firearms did much better than those that didn’t.  We fired the M-1 Garrand for qualification, for those that had never fired a gun the kick was “bad” and caused most to flinch.  I think about half the Company closed their eyes as they fired. I had a few years experience hunting with a 10 and 12 gauge shotgun so it didn’t bother me, I qualified first day.  I went through basic at Ft. Jackson, SC in January of 1956, it nowed the night before going to the range, that didn't help either since the damp cold cut right through the old field jackets,  Later, as a range instructor I found those that had some shooting experience easier to teach than those that didn't.  This was especially true when working with the women in the Air Force.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2012, 08:44:03 AM »
I shot better than about 95% of the fellows in my squadron but I'd been shooting since I was 6.  I bought a Remington 514 Boy's Rifle from my brother when I was 6.
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Offline finisher

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2012, 07:04:46 AM »
My overall assesment of weapons training in Navy basic was this: They wanted to assure that each recruit could pick up the weapon, load it, and safely discharge it in the general direction of the man size sillhouette down range without shooting themselves or someone behind or next to them in the foot. Although that isn't they told us.
 
Instruction was very stiff and systematic and anyone who even looked like they were about to point in the wrong direction got chewed severely, and any one that was stupid enough to sweep someone (and there are always a couple), fast as lightning, got choke slammed by the MA followed by a boondocker crushing the wrist of the gun hand.
 
In general, the city slickers did seem to have a more difficult time of it unless they, like myself were in Boy Scouts (where I learned rifle fundamentals), and like myself were fortunate enough to have a best friend whose dad was an LASD narcotics pilot and SWAT detective that was nice enough to pass his knowledge of combat pistol craft and shotgun to me while we were growing up in the heat of the "War on Drugs" back in the mid 80's. That was a crazy time to be a teenager in Los Angeles. Coming up from a humble background, I consider myself very blessed.
 
I later went to another community in the Navy where the firearms training was so comprehensive and thorough, and the instructors so professional, that even the guys who had never picked up a firearm before basic (and you'll find a few no matter what community it is) became expert shooters in a very short time. Sometimes the right instructor and the circumstances make all the difference
 
Not to toot my horn but throughout my time in the service, I was always, to the surprise of many, the one LA city slicker that could hold my own and often outshoot many of my more savy country shipmates.
 
Since then, I moved my family to rural southern Oregon and I've always tried to be the straight shooting exception, in many aspects beside shooting, to the often negative and generalized perceptions that the rest of America has about the "City Slicker" in general.
 
I was fortunate enough to be one of the few of my generation (so it seems these days) that had instilled in me the old values of hard work, humility, strong morals and empathy (not to mention manners and respect), and the ability to think for myself. There are often exceptions to every generalization.
 
Basic can be quite a culture shock to many, although in my opinion, Navy boot camp is bordering on being a joke. Hooyah to all of you who went in nervous and knowing very little yet kept your commitments.

Offline Lost Oki

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2012, 03:33:05 PM »
I did ok in Navy boot camp in 67, Finished aviation ordnance A school and spent a year in Beeville Texas assigned to station weapons, made the pistol team after a few lessons with a guy from our shop that shot rifle at the navy matches.  We had to qualify 100 sailors for a some type of civil disturbance squad using an M1, that was a hoot.  We put them at a raised picnic table at the 100 yrd range and they had a 4 ft square target to shoot at.  If you were the target, ya went home every day.  If you were the ground, 25 yrds to 50 yrds, you were dead.  Scary.  Enjoyed shooting the 45 and still shoot one today.  Nice thing about being station weapons and on a pistol team, had all the ammo we wanted to shoot. 

Offline Shu

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2012, 03:43:41 PM »
I used to volunteer for everything. I got into several good shooting schools in the Navy. There was no mention of lack of skills. You had to shoot pretty well to go to the schools to begin with. When I got back to my command at range qualification with the good ole M14 the Senior Chief said "hey Shu you think you can hit the target this time"? I replied just tell me when I have to qualify, I'll quit shooting the side of the target and shoot for score. He was a little bent becuase I had some nice 10 round groups outside the score zone. When I was told to quit screwing around I put them all center mass. I figured if they are paying for the ammo, I could do my part by shooting it. ;D
 
I did the same thing at the Sherrifs Academy and Police qualifications. The range officers liked having people who could shoot and would allow you to shoot a couple times through and then would tell you to shoot for score. I never qualified the first time around. 8)

Offline OldSchoolRanger

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2012, 05:18:38 AM »
Back when I went thru basic in 1969 (Ft Jackson, SC), I think most of the country boys did better than the "city-slickers", but there were exceptions.  I did pretty good qualifying as an expert with the 16.  I was raised in the outer boroughs of NYC, and was lucky enough to have a best friend Richie, whose uncle was a WWII vet.  He use to take us to the open landfill outside Idlewild (now JFK) International airport, on saturdays, and shoot the rats & seagulls, with 22's, if you did that today, you would be arrested.  Both me and Richie turn out to be decent shots.
 
 In AIT (light weapons infantry), we were required to get more familiar with M-16, and also required to qualify with the M-14, with more emphasis on the 16.  I think they were in the process of the change over.  I did notice the guys in AIT, paid a lot more attention to firearms training than the guys in basic.  The knowledge that most of us were going to Vietnam, was a great motivating factor. 
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Offline Swift One

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 07:47:40 AM »
Quote
As far as raising to the top . If you`ve got it ..
 ............you`ve got it.

This is 100% spot on.  It is true that those that grew up with guns around them and shooting them were a less intimidated by them than a person that never handled one.  However, there were alot of bad habits taught by dads and uncles and grandfathers that needed to be broken- I was included in the bad habits group.  And my bad habits were broken!! ;D
 
Now, take a person that has never shot a weapon before- but is able to follow instructions well.  That's a marksman in the making.
 
As a firearms instructor at my job I see this all the time.  If you got it, you got it.  Some people were born to shoot, some people can be taught to shoot, and some people are not cut out to shoot.
It's all a hot mess...........

Offline ironglow

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2012, 07:51:57 AM »
  Please note;  I was speaking in generalities..there are exceptions to every rule, but that's still my observations..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Swift One

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 01:32:41 PM »
  Please note;  I was speaking in generalities..there are exceptions to every rule, but that's still my observations..

In general- no.  I found no common occurance in country boys being able to shoot better than city folks.
It's all a hot mess...........

Offline ironglow

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2012, 01:34:18 PM »
  OK ..our experiences were different.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Swift One

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2012, 01:40:39 PM »
To add to that, I have found a common occurance with all the tactical pistol classes that I teach, that a woman that has never fired a weapon before and that is willing to listen, can at the end of a class be able to shoot under pressure, timed, and hitting vital areas out to 25yds better than some of the country boys that come through the classes with the females.  It just puts a smile on my face and a sense of accomplishment and pride in my heart.
It's all a hot mess...........

Offline finisher

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2012, 08:03:30 PM »
  Please note;  I was speaking in generalities..there are exceptions to every rule, but that's still my observations..

I apologize. I came across a little defensively. I seem to do that quite a bit in my posts. Trust me, what may seem like a log on my shoulder is really just saw dust. Bad city trait (in general ;D ).
 
 

Offline finisher

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Re: Question for veterans..
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2012, 08:07:23 PM »
To add to that, I have found a common occurance with all the tactical pistol classes that I teach, that a woman that has never fired a weapon before and that is willing to listen, can at the end of a class be able to shoot under pressure, timed, and hitting vital areas out to 25yds better than some of the country boys that come through the classes with the females.  It just puts a smile on my face and a sense of accomplishment and pride in my heart.

I really can't remember where and it was quite a while back, but I have heard a similar statement elsewhere.