223/308

[SHOOTALL]

Many feel the .223 rem or the 308 win is the best cal. for a survival rifle . Seems this guy in Ohio ( I think it was Ohio )had a zoo. Seems he went to jail and while he was gone his wife left him. When he got out he came home opened all the cages and commited suicide shame on him. It however gives a look at the two rounds in action. From what I have read there was one lion stopped with a 40 s&w at bad breath range with one shot. The rest were shot with shot gun loaded with buck shot ( had little effect on a lion) a few with a private owned 7mm mag and the rest ( around 20 +or- ) with 223 or 308. It was noted that it took 20-30 rounds on average to stop the tigers , lions and grizzly bears with 223 . 308 fared a little better but still no one shot stops.
Should cal be reconsidered for a survival weapon ? I live about a mmile and a half from a private zoo , so far nothing odd in the yard but then a few bears have passes thru . Survival is not always in a EOTWAWKI  it could be any time any where and last only a few chilling mins. 

[Lost Farmboy]

Interesting! I look forward to don heath's comment on this. I recall mentioning the possibility of PETA people releasing zoo animals in the bear gun thread.


I think the people shooting 30 rounds were shooting at the animals, not vital areas of the animals.

[keith44]

+1 on shooting at animal instead of vitals

[mcwoodduck]

In the early 90's there was an Elephant that went nuts in Hawaii and killed and wounded a few people the police were unable to stop the elephant with side arms and shotguns.  A few 223 rifles were employed to no avail by locals and it took a few guys with 30-30 pig guns and quite a few rounds to stop the cow elephant.
I lived a few miles from the San Diego wild animal park where there were Elephant, Rino, Buffalo (Black death, water and Bison)
along with all the big cats.
While hunting a year ago one of the guys in camp had come back from Africa where BIG Bird kicked the crap out of him.  The Ostrich attacked him and kicked him hard, breaking a rib, I asked what he would have done different, the answer was shoot the Ostrich as soon as it got close.
Well I have a few big game rifles and one is a 375 H&H for the wild game reserve. 
My old boss lives next door to the Wild Animal Actors and he asked if I would teach him to shoot and reccoment a rifle in case the lions, tigers and bears got free.  We got him a BAR stalker in 338 Win with a BOSS and a red dot. 
A few years ago, the CA game warden pulled into the driveway and I noticed he had an M1A scout model rather then an AR, I asked.  He said the 223 bullets do not work against large animals like a wounded Horse or bear that he has had to put down.  I asked what ammo, he said 180 grain soft points.
With all that said,
Most of us even those that set aside a special rifle for suvival have a deer caliber hunting rifle, some have larger.  That may not have a stock pile of ammo but the box or less for hunting you have can be pressed into fending off larger problems.
In WWI the German Snipers had a steel sled they hid behind and sniped from.  It stopped the 303 Brit rounds, some officers sent home for their African hunting rifles and shot through the steel sleds that protected the snipers.   At some point that 375 H&H or 400NE you have in the closet may be used to stop a large animal threat, may be used to stop a truck or car. 

[geezerbiker]

I've wanted a .338 magnum for a long time but I could never find a reason to justify it.  This could be the reason.  I live about 6 miles from the Portland zoo and they have plenty of big animals.   I can see the peta idiots trying to set animals free but I really doubt it's going to happen.  I've seen the enclosure the elephants are in and I don't think a peta idiot could release them.  I think it would take some one that worked there to be in on it.  Even though the elephants are tame, they're huge and would take the the NW forests like they were native...

If I lived near that drive through wild animal part in southern Oregon, I would be more concerned.   I think an old truck set up like a demolition derby car could take out a lot of the fences that keep the wild critters in.

Many years ago 2 drunk fools broke into the zoo and climbed into the lion cage and only one got out...  A week later the other moron came back with a .30-06 and killed the lion.  I don't know how many shots it took but the tracked the guy down and caught him later on. 

I don't know if the Portland zoo still does this but at one time they were releasing one or 2 big cats to roam the grounds at night to stop a rash of break ins.   This may have been a false news release aimed at the people breaking in...

Tony

[Couger]

.338 Tinnchester?
 
 
 
Do you live in elk country? 
 
That's all the reason you need (if you're looking for one). 

[mannyrock]

 
 
    A few years ago, Boddington wrote an Article in G&A, about testing the Steyer Scout rifle on big game in Africa.  His rifles was .308 Winchester with a 20 inch barrel.
 
   Boddington took 20 head of large African plains game including a huge Greater Kudu, a Wildebeast, and a Zebra.  Nineteen of them were one shot kills, and the last required only two shots.  Boddington, not being much of a .308 fan, was rather stunned at the effectiveness of the round.
 
   Though lions and tigers are large and dangerous, they are still thin skinned game.  And for the first half of the 20th Century, the classic caliber used on these animals in Africa and India was the plain old .303 British round nosed. 
 
   The .308 with a 180 grain core-lokt bullet would handily outperform the old British round, and I have not doubt that an experienced hunter could easily take a lion or tiger with it, with one or two rounds.
 
   I would imagine that the terrible scene at the zoo was a result of highly stressed police officers, shooting frantically at dozens of animals.  I doubt that many of them were experienced hunters, and I also have to wonder whether they were using fmj bullets in those .308s.
 
  I don't think the zoo incident really tells us anything about the effectiveness of any big game round.
 
Mannyrock

[LabRat2k3]

Comes down to the same thing that has always been true, Shot placement matters! Bullet design is also something that has to be taken into consideration. I've seen squirrels shot with a shotgun crawl off and bury themselves under leaves before they die, does that mean that  12 Ga. isn't enough gun for Gray squirrels because they weren't DRT?  

[don heath]

.223 with green tip ammo will easily kill an elephant with a heart shot- just a matter of knowing where to put it. Lion from side on are very soft but the heart is far back. From the the front when they are pissed off they will stop 12g slugs (but not .308 ball).
 
I carry a 9,3x62 for every day use - big enough for all but not a realistic servival round- Have built .223's for wife and kids

[SHOOTALL]

Its hard to say where the officers were shooting really. But some of the critters were large , Ammo is a factor also. If expanding ammo was used in 223's it may not have reached the vitial parts . I would think 308 FMJ would go thru most game . I think on Heath has the best thought in that you need to know where to place the bullet. Years  ago I picked up a little book that showed the location if vitials on North Amerivan game. It is a good book and takes alot of myth out of placing shots. BTW Bell the pocher/hunter of elephants killed a great many with both a 6.5  and a 7 mm both using FMJ military suplus ammo. I have read that one of the first he killed he had cut up to locate the brain for future ref.

[turk762]

Not sure where you all come from, but where I come from there are no lions, tigers, and grizzly bear,oh my, lol.  We have black bear but that is about it. I dont plan on traveling to far if shtf, as some believe it might. So the weapons I use to hunt deer are more then enough.

[SHOOTALL]

I live near a zoo. With what happened in Ohio it would seem one who lives near one could encounter a beast . If you live near a stock yard , farm or ranch you might encounter a bull , mad horse or any number of critters. Not far from my home a couple EMU's got out , one has been out for several years now. So far no trouble but its large enough to be a problem if it wanted to.

[Dixie Dude]

I think the .308 with fmj should penetrate almost anything.  WDM bell killed elephents with a 7mm Mauser with head shots using fmj ammo.  Most of these guys were probably using over the counter varmit rounds, thus the exploded almost immediately on the large animals and only made them mad.  Reloading with Nosler Partitians or Barnes TSX would get penetration and expansion.  Just have the right bullets handy for whatever you might encounter. 

[SHOOTALL]

he killed as many if not more with the 6.5    it was his favorite rifle .