Old powder question

[nova71]

I did some loading for my 357Max using all new brass and took it to the range yesterday. bad signs of too much pressure, flat primers and powder residue around primer pocket on a couple looked like it tried to blow the primer out. I was using 19.9gr 2400 behind 125gr Hornady XTP bullets, the manuals I looked at for the load all said between 19.2 and 21.5 in a revolver (never did find a load for rifle) so I was within the limits of a safe load. The 2400 powder I was using is OLD! over 20 years at least and it was stored in a cool dry place. It worked good with the 9mm I loaded but that takes a lot less powder than a 357Max. it didn't have a bad smell and looked good. can powder get more potent over time? that should have been a safe load according to the manuals. I still have 40 something of that load but am a little concerned about shooting it. what do you guys think? should I pull the bullets and use a different powder ?

[MSP Ret]

I am glad I saw this. I have a new container of 2400 and I also have an old (20+ years) container of 2400. I have done some searching and this weekend I was planning to load up some .357 Max loads using a 180 grain jacketed bullet and 19.5 grains of 2400, a load which fell just about in the middle of the loads for that weight bullet. I was planning to use up my older 2400 in trying some loads. I will be watching the replies to this thread....<><....

P.S. - from what I have been able to find out the newer Alliant 2400 may actually be a bit "hotter" than the old Hercules 2400, but not to any degree that should make a difference in a mid range load...

"From the above data, with the exception of the 21 gr data, we see that the Alliant 2400 appears to be “hotter”. However, the difference is less than 2% which is probably well within acceptable lot to lot variation. The 21 gr load where the Hercules 2400 is “hotter” is even less that 2% variation. Note that the 21.5 gr load of Hercules 2400 has 2,400 less psi than the 21 gr load of Alliant 2400 but still has a slightly higher velocity….such are the variances and why there is an acceptable variance. It is also why the “fudge factor” is built in. Were all the loads of Alliant 2400 “hotter” than the Hercules 2400 we could safely say, at least from this test, that this lot of Alliant 2400 is “hotter” than this lot of Hercules 2400. However that is not the case. With this test it appears both powders fall within lot to variation of a specific powder."
 

 

[jhalcott]

 The .357MAX was developed for Silohouette shooting and heavy bullets. You don't say if it's a TC or revolver.I'm betting it's a TC. I'd check the headspace on this barrel before doing anything else. Then I'd check to see if I was using small RIFLE primers(Rem7 1/2) or pistol primers. The 357max uses small rifle primers! A SAFE pistol load should work fine in the longer rifle barrel and gain some fps in the bargain.
  Gun powder can decompose and become unstable as it ages. Storage in cool dark places slow the process a lot. I ve reloaded WW1 powders in the 1980's with NO problems(other than finding data).

[Catfish]

If you put a real heavy crimp on the bullets it will up your presure some and if you at or near max. it will show up in presure signs.

[nova71]

jhalcott: sorry, it's a Handi-Rifle with a 22" barrel, I did use CCI-550 primers because that was what I had   next batch I'll go to a rifle primer. I got out of reloading in the late 80's but kept all my stuff, so I had a lot of old powder that I have been using up, this is the first time I have noted any problem with any of it.


Catfish: since it was for a single shot rifle I didn't use a crimp at all, didn't seem to need one.

[iiranger]

In one of his books, Col. Nonte goes over powder making. The manufacturer loads the machines with chemicals and turns them on and has no EXACT idea what will come out the other end. Yes, it will be either stick or ball or flake (flattend ball often) or sheets for cutting (I found this in some Europe military)... But nothing EXACT. The major marketers have a "cannister burn rate" and if the batch is close it may be set aside and blended to meet the "canister burn rate" and coated and ... and then packaged for the retail market. MOST POWDER is sold in drums to loaders/factories who have a ballistics lab and the lab works out a load and the machinery is set for that load and a couple hundred thousand rounds are "cranked out." Yes, with safety checks, hopefully.

POINT: from one year to the next, from one batch to the next all powder is not the same regardless of its designation. So "old" 2400 should be loaded with "old" 2400 data or with GREATEST CARE using new data. I think it was Speer #9 book had two 4831 loads for .270 WCF. One was IMR 4831 and the other H4831 and they were 6 grains different...

BEWARE, BEWARE, BEWARE and BEWARE some more. Please. don't blow your head off. Lots of bad press for the rest of us...

The story of rotten powder was explained in Rifleman couple years back. During War WW II, Dupont was asked to speed up manufacture by leaving out a couple of wash steps. Powder was going to be burned shooting at the enemy real soon by all expectations and shelf life was not important. They did. Some powder got into surplus after war. Had acid that would eat a hole in a metal can.

Normal solvents smell like alcohol or acetone (nail polish remover without scent) or lighter fluid. The bad stuff smells like vinegar. And red dust forms from the rotten powder. Dump it on garden or lawn. Nothing to hurt plants. Good fertilizer. Just don't shoot it. Burn rate totally unpredictable. Luck. Happy Trails. Reminds me I have a can of H240 from who knows when. Should open it...

PS. Hodgdon takes questions by email and should be able to advise you. Sold tons of 2400 as H240 surplus over the years.... Before ball powder (110 and 296) took over in .30 Carbine.