Author Topic: Lyman Great Plains Rifle: Can a 1:60" twist shoot a Max (Read 2635 times)

swecology · « **on:** January 19, 2004, 05:32:35 PM »

My question is similar to the previous post regarding a Lyman Great Plains Hunter, except...

I'm wondering if I can effectively shoot Lyman's 395 gr. 50 cal. Plains bullet in a barrel that has been designed for a round ball? Or, is a barrel with a faster rate of twist "absolutely" essential?

I'll admit, I haven't shot the gun yet, so I have nothing to compare it too. Right now, the weapon is in pieces on my shop bench, in various stages of finishing - i.e. completing the browning of the barrel and furniture, and allowing the finish coats to dry on the stock. I'm figuring on having it completed by the weekend. I don't even know how well it would handle a 177 gr, .490 round ball yet. Still, the idea of casting and then throwing a big chunk of lead makes me ask the question.

-Matt

WD45 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 20, 2004, 01:51:23 AM »

My personal experience is that I could never get a 1:60 barrel to shoot any conical over 300 grains with any accuracy. Now thats me and my guns.... maybe someone else here has and can give you some better info on thier loads.
I have a 45 cal right now that shoots a 240 grain maxi very accurate and starts going down hill after that. Over 300 grains I couldnt hit the south end of a northbound moose. :grin: The 50 cals I have had would allow a little more weight but not that much and shot best around 280 grains.

Snowshoe · « **Reply #2 on:** January 20, 2004, 03:34:24 AM »

If you realy want to try bullets, try the Ball-ets. They work well in slow twist barrels. I like the round ball for deer hunting, and think you have about the best rifle out there, short of custom guns. I started shooting balls, and went to bullets, sabots, and am now back to balls and plan on staying with them. Good luck.

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #3 on:** January 20, 2004, 04:09:21 AM »

One of my friends has a slow twist .50 cal round ball barrel and we have found that the short Lee REALS shoot really well. The longer bullets do not.

Super Rat · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2004, 09:40:52 AM »

Yes the REAL or Ballet would probably work best. I would suspect that hotter loads would work "more better", but there's only one way to find out.

I prefer round balls these days too, and I think as long as you are shooting .50" or bigger they will work great for hunting. Most people with a fast twist barrel WISH they had one rifled for balls!!

Slug guns are fun though, but to really have fun with slugs you might want to pick up another gun rifled for them. The .58's such as the replica 1861 Springfield, or 1863 Remingtons, or the .577 Enfields will really shoot a variety of slugs, and fling a BIG chunk of lead. My .58 throws a 625 grain minnie really nice.

Grump · « **Reply #5 on:** January 20, 2004, 04:32:57 PM »

I have recently tried home cast LEE REAL bullets in my .50 GPR with excelent results. The 250 gr. and a over powder wad has worked the best for me. Also had good results from 240 gr. Hornady PA conicals.Achieved 1.5" and better groups at 50yds with 65 grs.of 777.My GPR shoots round balls with excelent accuracy also.

crow_feather · « **Reply #6 on:** January 21, 2004, 08:46:50 PM »

I have a 54 and I carry the Thompson Maxi that I run from a mould for fast 2nd shots. They shoot well in my slow twist Tryon and in the GPR's that I have owned. I prefer the round ball, but sometimes the maxi is not a bad second choice.

C F

Jayhawk Dan · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2004, 12:56:59 PM »

I learn a lot reading the posts in this forum. I began my muzzle loading life in 1974 with a T/C .50 Hawken that now belongs to my son. I followed that with a Lyman .50 GP Rifle in about 1984. My Lyman shoots .490 round balls (90 grain 2F Pyrodex or black powder) very accurately out to 100 yards and also shoots the 385 gr Hornady Great Plains conical (80 gr Pyrodex or black powder) pretty accurately out to 100 yards.

Years ago a friend gave me some REAL conicals that my Lyman also liked, as did I. I want more of the REALs, but I don't cast bullets. QUESTION #1: Where I can I purchase those REAL conicals?

QUESTION #2: What do you mean, Grump, when you wrote that you used an "over poweder wad?" This is a new term to me in shooting muzzle loading rifles, although I use overpowder wads in shot shells I reload. Would you please describe in detail what you are using and the advantages you find in using this wad?

Thank you all in advance for reading my post and, hopefully, replying!!
Jayhawk Dan

lonewolf5347 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 25, 2004, 01:26:40 PM »

Quote from: Jayhawk Dan

I learn a lot reading the posts in this forum. I began my muzzle loading life in 1974 with a T/C .50 Hawken that now belongs to my son. I followed that with a Lyman .50 GP Rifle in about 1984. My Lyman shoots .490 round balls (90 grain 2F Pyrodex or black powder) very accurately out to 100 yards and also shoots the 385 gr Hornady Great Plains conical (80 gr Pyrodex or black powder) pretty accurately out to 100 yards.

Years ago a friend gave me some REAL conicals that my Lyman also liked, as did I. I want more of the REALs, but I don't cast bullets. QUESTION #1: Where I can I purchase those REAL conicals?

QUESTION #2: What do you mean, Grump, when you wrote that you used an "over poweder wad?" This is a new term to me in shooting muzzle loading rifles, although I use overpowder wads in shot shells I reload. Would you please describe in detail what you are using and the advantages you find in using this wad?

Thank you all in advance for reading my post and, hopefully, replying!!
Jayhawk Dan

Grump · « **Reply #9 on:** January 25, 2004, 02:22:23 PM »

JAYHAWK DAN.You can use several brands of wads.Wonder wad, Ox yoke,Remington.Most stores that sell ML stuff got em. They are premade in different calibers.If you can find 100% wool felt (Military surplus winter boot soles)or some thing similar that doesnt have a synthetic weave, buy a gasket hole punch for under $10 and make your own.A 1/2" I.D piece of thin walled tubing sharpened at on end works too. I have also used dense cardboard with good succes.I have also read where Cream of Wheat or corn meal can be used as a buffer,havent tried it so i cant tell ya. Man, when you cutting wads out of your winter boots ya know your cheap...Um I mean Traditional. :grin:

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #10 on:** January 25, 2004, 03:29:13 PM »

Dan,

That's one of the reasons for casting, you can make stuff you can't buy. However if your really can't or won't try casting your own projectiles, consider finding someone who lives close to you and does or would like to and buy them one of those short Lee REAL moulds and them find them some soft lead to cast them from.

Naphtali · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2004, 07:35:47 AM »

Thank goodness somebody asked a question that has bugged me for years.

I read about rate of twist needed for this bullet and that bullet, the general rule being the greater the ratio of length to diameter, the quicker the rate of twist needed.

But doesn't this really mean quicker axial rotation? What I'm asking is if Lyman's 395 gr. 50 cal. Plains bullet shoots poorly from a 1:60 twist barrel -- the barrel shoots RBs well -- would not the barrel shoot these bullets well also if the velocity were increased so that the axial rotation were also increased?

OR does velocity have nothing to do with axial rotation -- this makes no sense to me.

If axial rotation is what stabilizes bullets, not rate of twist (except as function of axial rotation), is there a formula that computes axial rotation in RPMs required to stabilize [any] bullet? If there is, then we could create acceptably accurate loads for a wide variety of projectiles and be confident of results before we popped a cap.

crow_feather · « **Reply #12 on:** January 30, 2004, 07:53:02 AM »

I believe that speed does have an effect. However, as the speed is pretty well max when the computation is made, you can't get the speed needed to stabalize the slug without causing other problems.

There is one thing that can be done. Get some bullets that you want to try - take them out and try them. If they work, fine - if they don't, then you can write - I tried it and it don't work.

rollingb · « **Reply #13 on:** January 30, 2004, 08:29:11 AM »

After thounsands of rounds I have comed to the conclusion thet the "rate of twist" is too slow to stabilize conicals in my smoothbore!!

crow_feather · « **Reply #14 on:** January 30, 2004, 09:51:18 AM »

Rollingb
Aintcha lerned nutin yet. Ya gotta spin da riflegun faster as ya pull da trigger. Purty soon I'll havta show ya how ta load it. Ya twist the rubber band befor ya put the slug inna barrel. Ya git better spin thet way.

C F

rollingb · « **Reply #15 on:** January 30, 2004, 10:00:48 AM »

Crow Feather :-D

Thanks fer tha "advice"!!

I"ll give a few thousand more rounds a try!!

(I"ma slow "lerner"!)

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #16 on:** February 06, 2004, 03:15:26 PM »

I also had good results with Lee's REAL bullet in a .50 T-C Pennsylvania Hunter.

A word of caution though - conicals can move off the powder charge while you are walking around, due to the jostling of the the gun. This can put a real crimp in your day when you shoot at a deer and the gun blows apart. This phenomenon has not been seen with patched round ball. Best stick with PRB. It uses less lead anyway.

-WH-

tacks · « **Reply #17 on:** February 06, 2004, 04:30:55 PM »

look at this thread rb. ya fought and fought ta get a "special " link fer trad folk!
and a feller asks what he can shoot a maxi in his rb riflegun,,,and what do you an fedder say?? "oh! it ain't a smoody!

yer another one, cain't even remember from whence ya came. born one way and thats' it.,,stubern old school,,Stupid! I'd hoped not.
remember ,whent ya learned?,,,cain't ya help others larn the same?
,don't forget to learn,,,,,the poor feller asked,,,then ya pissed'im off din't ya,?

rollingb · « **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2004, 05:27:20 PM »

Re-read my post agin tacks!!

I offered a very good example "for the "need" of faster twist for conicals as compared to roundballs, by the "mention" of a riflegun (smoothbore") thet ain't got no "twist" a'tall!!

Tha feller realized, thet the GPR "twist" is designed for roundball, (he stated so in his original post) and the "reason why". He was give'n excellent advice by other "posters", before I even replyed to Crow Feather.

"WHAT" is yore evidence thet I somehow "pissed'im off" (I guess yore refer'n to the original poster), when I replyed to Crow Feather's post??

A "STRONG" cup'a coffee might help ya think things out more clearly 'fore you start call'n folks "stupid"!!!! :gulp:

P.S. and, I don't need no "preach'n" from someone, who offered "no advice" to the original poster, a'tall!!

tacks · « **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2004, 07:37:17 PM »

Your right, I was refering to the original poster,and I read all of the stuff. And ya did piss the guy off.i ain't no good at cut,copy an paste stuff,,but he don't wanna post no more does he.
I guess that feller will become a Traditional shooter huh?

I didn't call anyone stupid,, i said "stubern old school ,Stupid"

Dumb is ok,,thats how ya learn,,

Stupid is ,, does it over and over again,, maybe have a little coffee yourself,,just ta take a break,,your on every bp site there is,,,,you asked,,, I spent $5 trying to find a "robert" just so you can buy a new :cry: keyboard?
stupid? Coffee? answer your own e-mails! an I need coffee? :cry:

rollingb · « **Reply #20 on:** February 06, 2004, 09:05:33 PM »

JEEZE!!!!... tacks!!..... The fella posted "ONE TIME",.... then ther were "11" replys to his post before a "SINGLE ONE OF'EM" was mine.

Now yore try'n to say thet "MY" post, to Crow Feather.... "pissed'im off",.. cause'n the fella to leave?

How'n tha hell,.... did you come to thet "conclusion"

? How do you "KNOW" he didn't leave after the first couple'a posts (long before mine)

??

Here's sumpthin else buddy,.....
I never asked you to make any damned phone-calls.
I was do'n the guy a favor for "FREE",.. so if you think sumbuddy "owes" you $5.00, then git it from him!!
"FACT IS".... he told me in an e-mail, thet his cousin "John", told him to contact "ME",.... well!!.. YOU have my e-mail addy, and YORE name "is" John, and a "Robert" did post on this site,.... so YOU figger it out!!

I don't collect money for help'n folks out with antique gun information,....
so, my "NEW" keyboard wasn't paid for by "ANYONE" from Minnisota.

"YES"!!.. I am "old school",... and I might even be "stuborn",.... but, yore streach'n it'a mite, when you use the word "stupid" lightly!!

It also seems to bother you, thet I visit several different websites,.... is ther a "LEGAL LIMIT" to how many websites a fella can chat on?

?

and,...."AH HELL"!!.... (I ain't even gonna mention the "gift" I sent you months ago,.... when I thot you was a "friend" and you wanted "sumpthin"!!)

I see a two-year-"friendship" come'n to an "end",..... if you continue "this crap"!!

The "ONLY" arguements I've seen on this site since it's "seperation",.... are the ones "YOU" bring here!!

"IF" I am in error here, I hope other veiwers will speak-up,..... "IF" thet happens, I will appologize to "YOU"!!

intimidater68 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 07, 2004, 09:11:21 AM »

I use a Lyman Great plains 1:60 myself & will tell you it is strictly a round ball gun. It will shot maxie balls but it is like throwing a football by the point. There is not enough twist in the barrel to make the ball fly straight. So it ends up flipping end over end & hits the target sideways. They are however excellent guns for round ball. I can testify to this with 11 deer kills with mine.
For furture thought if you prefer the maxie balls, Thompson Center has a 1:48. Lyman is working on a great plains that will have 1:22 for sabbat ball. :-)

swecology · « **Reply #22 on:** February 08, 2004, 06:10:10 AM »

Hey. :grin:

O.K., guess it's time to speak up...

No one ticked me off or made me mad, especially either one of you. I've just been busy with work, school, and finally shooting my GPR to do much answering.

After finally getting the sights and screws that I needed from Lyman and getting them installed, I took the GPR to the range and tried it out. Works great! The last of three shots (.495 ball, .010 patch lubed with Trapper's Pure mink oil) that I took was at 80 grains of Goex FFg. I was impressed with the accuracy, so far, at 25 yds. I was going for the fourth shot, when I was somehow distracted when loading. I am afraid that I didn't put a powder charge down the tube, but I am not sure. :oops: Being better safe than sorry, I tried pulling it with a ball puller, without much luck. Decided to pack it up and head home. I ordered a CO2 load discharger from Cabelas that night. So, I am "out of commision" when it comes to shooting BP until then. On the other hand, I haven't had that much fun shooting in a long time, as I did with those three RB's! I'm hooked!

As for shooting conicals, one step at a time on this one. I want to get this "round ball thing" figured out more before I start playing with the conicals.

One thing is for certain. I need more coffee right now. :coffee: I'm paying for a really long day in the field yesterday, looking at Big Horn habitat for a class - but that's another story.

See ya,

Matt

Good time Charlie · « **Reply #23 on:** February 08, 2004, 04:26:23 PM »

Matt you can take the nipple out and put a small amount of powder down the hole and tap on the side of the gun while holding it over to the left a bit. You can do this several times and shoot the ball out. I have had to do this a few times for a forgetful Friend of mine.LOL I of course would never forget the powder. I also only lie on special occasions.
Charlie

Grump · « **Reply #24 on:** February 08, 2004, 04:50:43 PM »

I agree with Good Time Charlie!! I have also practiced this method many times. Doesnt take that much powder to blow the ball out.Good luck!