Author Topic: Swivel Gun Carriage  (Read 2565 times)

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Offline jamesfrom180

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Swivel Gun Carriage
« on: February 27, 2012, 03:52:44 AM »
Let me first preface this with I belong to a group that interpenetrates the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade Era.  My father has found a documented design we would like the forum to look at.

His question to me and the one I will initially put to you is what color would this have been painted or finished as?  The historic piece is in the drawing below and is the first picture. I do not have the book this was out of but I believe it is the "Mountain Man's Sketch Book Vol. I.". Clearly the HB gives us the clue that it possibly would have been English but would the Hudson's Bay company have followed Royal Military standards?  The question is pertaining to the carriage. 

Next we are looking at building a carriage for a 1" bore swivel the we have.  We wish to pattern it off of this HB piece.  It will be offered as an interpretation of what a party of free trappers would have had in the southern Rockies possibly passing through Bent's Fort and Taos.  I will more than likely build the axle tree out of cypress and add cedar cheeks. I am wondering if there was a pattern similarly used for the Seminole wars in Florida. This might also tie into the thread posted about the small gun in Silver Springs Park.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,252656.0.html
My feelings are that the carriage would have possibly been a re-purposed limber or would have been built in the field. If this was the case the finish could be linseed oil, occur, olive, or maybe blue.  I have no idea as color is something that is lost in history sometimes.  The idea is to have the swivel yoke mounted behind the axle and that the carriage will not recoil like a regular piece.  The gunner standing behind the gun and traversing and elevating the piece with a tail in his hand much like a swivel would be used on a rail of a ship.

Included is the illustration of the desired design.  This obviously takes its cues from the documented piece but is not entirely a copy.  We have alot of history that says swivels entered the west on flat boats and were carried as far as the forts.  Some even have been documented as being taken further and cached to be used at later times.  One account has a party digging up a cache and using their swivel to repel an Indian attack. 

PS.  I have now found the Galloper carriage gun and think this might be the inspiration.  As a example is dated 1756 at the Firepower, Museum of Royal Artillery and the time period I am interested in is 1820-1840 I wonder how relevant this could be.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=98545.0
I do like to point back to threads if they are helpful.  This allows people to add new material and not just have to say here try this.  So it looks like what we are actually building will be a galloper carriage for a swivel.  Still need to know a color. 
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2012, 07:26:01 AM »
From examples I have seen they were usually dismounted from the swivel and mounted using a wooden carraige like any other artillery......many times being at a trading fort they were mounted on a simple truck carraige.....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2012, 07:28:51 AM »
This was my thoughts also.  Still leaves the question of what color the carriage would have been?
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2012, 07:33:38 AM »
being on the fronteer and paint being expensive item to ship most likely wood tone.... if it was painted being a civilian item what ever avalible color would have been applied.... but I would research how much paint was actually used on the fronteer....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2012, 09:25:50 AM »
Although this is entirely speculation, the reason box cars were painted box car red (red oxide) is that it was cheap and available.  I would extend the same logic here; what kinds of natural (probably mineral) pigments were available in the area where the proposed construction occurred?  That would be what guides me.

On the other hand, I think paints in those days were mixed by the painter on site rather than store bought.  Seems like almost anything would be possible.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2012, 09:42:50 AM »
I agree with the above posts.  Whatever paint was available was probably their first choice.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 10:23:35 AM »
So far so good.  As I have surmised boiled linseed oil was my first guess then maybe ochre.  This would mainly have acted as a water sealant.  Any one want to take a guess at the actual carriage construction.  I would assume a heavey axle tree and cheeks but the use of a block and the swivel yoke is proposed.  Is this concurrent with anyone's thoughts?
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2012, 11:11:58 AM »
If a field carraige is being used the quickest way would be remove the axle and wheels from a damaged or abandoned wagon some of the iron off said wagon could be reworked by a blacksmith at the trading post for the cannon hardware. if it was a truck carraige the what ever hard wood tree available maybe dead fall would be pit cut for the slabs that would become the cheeks.... again blacksmithed hardware....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2012, 11:17:41 AM »
Luckily I'm a blacksmith. ;) The pit cut is a bit much but then I have a timber curing now from a cypress tree.  Wheels are the biggest issue as I think we all know.
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2012, 11:34:36 AM »
What about a solid wheel along the lines of the Spanish/Mexican cart wheels? I believe that is what was used on the "Come and take it" cannon ......
Link added:
http://www.theoutlaws.com/misc1.htm
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2012, 11:48:48 AM »
One unique thing you could do that was done in the day......
mount the swivel gun on a pack saddle and get a mule to coroperate with firing it off it's back.......... now talk about a living history impression........... of course PETA might get upset.......
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Zulu

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2012, 12:24:04 PM »
One unique thing you could do that was done in the day......
mount the swivel gun on a pack saddle and get a mule to coroperate with firing it off it's back.......... now talk about a living history impression........... of course PETA might get upset.......

And when you are done, you can eat the mule. :P
Zulu
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Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2012, 03:47:34 PM »
Actually we came to the conclusion that a donkey cart was q uite a posbility.  I do like the idea of the solid wheels b ut the old man has a set of wheels.
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline Frank46

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2012, 05:27:49 PM »
Check out "man in the wilderness" with richard harris. They are showing a swivel gun mounted on what looks like a keel boat. He gets mauled by a bear and left for dead. He then recuperates and comes back. Worth the look. Frank

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2012, 04:11:36 AM »
Sounds like  "A Man Called Horse". 
The "come and take it gun" now that is a neat story.  As for the keel boats I am pretty familiar with them and they would have made it up the snake but the guns made it alot further than that, so some carriage or pack animal had to have been used. 

Thanks again for the input.  Keep any thoughts comming. Even the strangest might send me down the right rabbit hole.
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline Zulu

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2012, 04:26:40 AM »
In the movie "Man in the Wilderness" They are moving a keel boat across the desert on axled wheels.  It has a rail gun mounted in the bow.
 
Other options;
 


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Offline KABAR2

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2012, 07:16:07 AM »
If memory serves me the Man and the wilderness keel boat had what looked like a Napoleon mounted as a swivel..... leave it to hollywood.....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline threepdr

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2012, 09:50:41 AM »
The galloper style carriage was used by many European powers in the 18th Century.  Although John Muller included plans for a galloper in this "Treatise on Artillery," we in the Rev War reenacting community can't find any period documentation that they were actually used in North America.  People still use them in the hobby, as the plans appear in Mullers.  I'm thinking of building one myself for use with one of new Hern Iron Works new Rev War tubes.
 
As far as color is concerned - It is according to what time frame you want.  In the late 1700s prussian blue pigment was developed.  It was the first artificially developed paint pigment and was quite inexpensive.  That is why you see American and French artillery going to it in the 1780s and later. Before then red oxide or lead gray were the cheapest pigments.  It could be oil base or milk paint based. 
 
See my history and archaeology blog at:  http://erasgone.blogspot.com/

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2012, 10:19:07 AM »
threpdr a nod to your recent king howitzer build.  Very nice.

the time frame is 1820-1840 so pretty much out on the frontier looks like whatever was there.  I think the boxes will be added to the axle tree just to ease the attachment of the trails.
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2012, 01:35:22 AM »

Here is a picture of the Galloper at the Museum of Royal Artillery. http://www.flickr.com/photos/barryslemmings/213116083/
Max

Offline exlimey

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2012, 02:43:30 AM »

Here is a picture of the Galloper at the Museum of Royal Artillery. http://www.flickr.com/photos/barryslemmings/213116083/
   
Nice model which should be painted Grey! also the dowledge plates ( that cover the gap between the felloes) should match the curve of the felloes and not be straight; and also be only on the outside of the wheel. Looks like the one in Mullers treatise on Artillery

Offline Rayfan87

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2012, 09:28:12 AM »
One unique thing you could do that was done in the day......
mount the swivel gun on a pack saddle and get a mule to coroperate with firing it off it's back.......... now talk about a living history impression........... of course PETA might get upset.......
Can you really call it a successful day if you haven't made PETA upset?

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2012, 10:48:08 AM »
One unique thing you could do that was done in the day......
mount the swivel gun on a pack saddle and get a mule to coroperate with firing it off it's back.......... now talk about a living history impression........... of course PETA might get upset.......
Can you really call it a successful day if you haven't made PETA upset?
Their headquarters is in Norfolk Virginia although most call them "People eating tasty animals..... around here they are called People embarasing Tidewater area...... There is hope though.... the headquarters is located on a river..... with the right Hurricane it might be washed out to sea.....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2012, 09:27:10 AM »
Thanks to all the smart people the project looks to be off and running. 
Looks like the axle tree will be a 6x6 clear cedar timber.  8 foot piece was only 80 bucks.  As I am not building this I will try and keep information flowing.  Wish us luck.
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2012, 05:38:35 AM »
Cedar would not be my first choice for a cannon carriage, White Oak would be best and red oak second best...... are you planning to fire only blanks out of this or ball?
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2012, 08:18:03 AM »
It has always been deemed blank only. 

Was thinking about cypress as some local mills have cuts.  Problem is that the would is not dried and proper care would need to be taken. 
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline flagman1776

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2012, 02:57:24 AM »
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Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2012, 03:12:35 AM »
I lack alot of knowledge on milling wood.  I know the wood as moisture content decreases has a tendency to crack and change properties.  That said I know cypress has a few different types depending on the tree.  Old growth like down in the swamps here will give you a dense rot resistant wood. Then again old growth stunted pond cypress is the denser as apposed to lake cypress that is lighter.  Some cypress is red heartwood and that is the real rot resistant stuff. 
AMMA Bosslopper 1988

Offline jamesfrom180

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Re: Swivel Gun Carriage
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2012, 05:34:26 AM »
Well Dad found a source of 6x6 cedar and has this design in mind.  I'll try and keep his progress up here.  He hates computers.  Probably a good thing for the rest of us.
AMMA Bosslopper 1988