Author Topic: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...  (Read 1067 times)

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Online ironglow

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Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« on: April 01, 2012, 01:25:13 AM »
  Those of us who have been close observers of the economic & political landscape over the past 5 decades or so, can recall a similar sitruation taking place at the end of each president's cycle..a recession follows.  Seems like each pres wants to end with a bang, and so times things to peak as he leaves office.  Either that, or the opposing party takes congress in the off-year and (e.g. 2006) they start their crippling moves to change presidentcies..  A recession normally follows, either just before or just after administration change.
    So, each president is faced with the same challenge, the big difference is how the incoming president handles the recession.
  This article outlines opposing ways of handling such a situation..
 
      A) One president lowers taxes, unleashes free enterprise and gets government out of the way.
              His slogan:... " It's morning in America !"
      B) The other president raises taxes, inhibits private enterprise and grows government.
             His slogan:... " Spread the wealth around !"
 
  The following explanation explains what many of us have experienced..observing both;
         http://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/one-year-later-another-look-at-obamanomics-vs-reaganomics/
 
    Below; see 2 graphs, showing the comparable recovery (growth).....    .Blue line..Reagan   Red line..Obama 
 
  Reagan attended little ...Eureka College (today, 766 students)...  Obama attended Haaavahd  ..results speak for themselves..
 
  Second graph shows how far the incoming admin allowed unemployment to continue...
   
   ( if the graph doesn't come in, click on red arrow...otherwise, same graphs are toward the bottom of the article linked above)
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Junior1942

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2012, 03:55:11 AM »
From the fine print at the bottom of your first graph: "Start of the recovery for the 2007 recession is June 2009....."
I wonder what party was in office when the recession started in 2007?  I also wonder what party was in office when the recovery started in 2009?  ironglow, how's about a simple, non-evasive answer?
Hint: the "recession started" answer is the party you want back in power.  Looks to me like you want another Great Depression!

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2012, 04:21:41 AM »
From the fine print at the bottom of your first graph: "Start of the recovery for the 2007 recession is June 2009....."
I wonder what party was in office when the recession started in 2007?  I also wonder what party was in office when the recovery started in 2009?  ironglow, how's about a simple, non-evasive answer?
Hint: the "recession started" answer is the party you want back in power.  Looks to me like you want another Great Depression!

Looks like you don't know what it means to make a bad thing worse.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline magooch

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2012, 04:34:00 AM »
Junior's memory is very short and very flawed.  The Dumycrats had control of both houses of Congress from 2007, right through 2010.  A President can do a lot, but not against a Congress headed by the likes of Harry Reid and Nancy Pilosi. 
 
 
Swingem

Offline Junior1942

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2012, 04:58:12 AM »
Junior's memory is very short and very flawed.  The Dumycrats had control of both houses of Congress from 2007, right through 2010.  A President can do a lot, but not against a Congress headed by the likes of Harry Reid and Nancy Pilosi.
Excuses, excuses.  It's always someone else's fault.  There was NOT a Democrat behind "The Buck Stops Here" desk when the economy started tanking.  There WAS a Democrat behind that desk when the economy started recovering.  That's certified facts. And, IMHO, if you guys manage to put a Republican behind that desk, the tanking will start again, and we'll get Great Depression II.  But it would be Obama's fault, right?
 
 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2012, 06:48:04 AM »
Jr.,
After four years of Regan we saw a spike in the economy and it carried through to Clintons administration and the three tax increases are what finally killed the Regan Economy.  After four years of Obama we see nothing!
The first  Tax increase was Bush 41 when he said read my lips and a Democrat Congress said oh yes we will and veto proofed a tax increase.
The second and third were under Clinton.
The Tax decrease under Bush 43 that was poo pooed by Pelosi did very little as most Democrat states raised taxes the same or more than the Federal trax cut creating nothing.
We all know, and have proof that the cutting of taxes and relaxing regulations spurs economic growth.
Obama and the Democrat controlled Senate will not allow lower taxes.  Their Mantra is you need to pay more.  They call it things that have tested better in a sound bite but the reality is that now matter how much you are paying in taxes they do not think it is enough.  They claim they want to raise taxes to have more to spend on social programs.  Clearly the reverse is the opposite.  As more people are allowed ot keep their $ they spend it, spending creates profits, profits create new entries into the Market.  Greater profits at a lower tax rate create more $.  Clearly 6% of a million is more than 20% 100,000.
Under Obama we have no growth and people that create jobs are told they are the root of all of our problems and are told they need to pay more.  With looming tax increases no one will hire.  You want to see an end to unemployment and an end to our debt.  Drop the tax rate to 7% as the top marginal tax rate, and 15% for corperate taxes and freeze the federal spending in place for 4 years.   

Offline Junior1942

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2012, 08:03:25 AM »
mcwood, I'm sure you mean well, but 100% of what you wrote is straight from some right wing spin doctor.
This is no spin: who sat behind the Buck Stop's desk then and now?  Put another GWB-clone behind it and goodbye America. 

Online ironglow

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2012, 08:24:02 AM »
   Yes.. Both B ush and Reagan sat BEHIND that desk..  Clinton did his most remarkable accomplishment, under the desk...   Obammy runs around all over the furniture..even standing upon the desk..
   What passes for furniture in Kenya ? 
   http://outragedpatriots.com/Obamas-Third-Insult-to-Great-Britain-propping-his-feet-on-The-Resolute-Desk.htm
 
   You wouldn't think a man of average intelligence or above, would have to be told how to respect furniture...especially when it's only borrowed..   It's time those of above average intelligence, voted his clod-hoppers off our furniture !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Junior1942

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2012, 08:56:05 AM »
   Yes.. Both B ush and Reagan sat BEHIND that desk..  Clinton did his most remarkable accomplishment, under the desk...   Obammy runs around all over the furniture..even standing upon the desk..
   What passes for furniture in Kenya ? 
   http://outragedpatriots.com/Obamas-Third-Insult-to-Great-Britain-propping-his-feet-on-The-Resolute-Desk.htm
 
   You wouldn't think a man of average intelligence or above, would have to be told how to respect furniture...especially when it's only borrowed..   It's time those of above average intelligence, voted his clod-hoppers off our furniture !
One fake and one grasping for straws.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2012, 02:03:47 PM »
mcwood, I'm sure you mean well, but 100% of what you wrote is straight from some right wing spin doctor.
This is no spin: who sat behind the Buck Stop's desk then and now?  Put another GWB-clone behind it and goodbye America.
Sorry the left wing is the one that has spin doctors the Right or better the correct wing has facts?
Facts are what the liberals cna not stand and have to LIE over and over again.
The only good thing is when a Republican Lies the media callsz him on it.
When the left lies they echo the lie.
When Clinto was in Office all we heard from the media was we know is is not telling the truth but he sounds so good doing it and his un thruith made sense.
Liberals in order to pass anything that is contrary to human nature, they have to lie. 
To steal your freedoms they have to lie or spin the truth.
Ther has not been another Democrat like Truman or JFK.
JFK today would be called a right wing hypoctitical womanizing 1%er by the media.
He called for tax cuts. 
I hate to tell you that cutting taxes spawns economic growth.  Economic growth  creates a wider tax base that generates more total tax dollars.  Not Spin Fact!

Offline Junior1942

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2012, 03:09:03 PM »
I hate to tell you that cutting taxes spawns economic growth.  Economic growth  creates a wider tax base that generates more total tax dollars.  Not Spin Fact!
Your fact is not a fact.  Here's a certified fact: The DJIA soon after tax cutter Bush left office: ~6200.  The DJIA as of Friday with a Democrat in office: Exactly 13,212.04.  One more tax cut for GWB's billionaire friends and we'd be raising goats.

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2012, 03:18:57 PM »
I hate to tell you that cutting taxes spawns economic growth.  Economic growth  creates a wider tax base that generates more total tax dollars.  Not Spin Fact!
Your fact is not a fact.  Here's a certified fact: The DJIA soon after tax cutter Bush left office: ~6200.  The DJIA as of Friday with a Democrat in office: Exactly 13,212.04.  One more tax cut for GWB's billionaire friends and we'd be raising goats.
And what did it plummet too just after that? ::)
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Offline mirage1988

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2012, 03:53:45 PM »
Yup, your right junior, obama stimulated the economy, for FEDERAL PREMIUM-ATK -here is the link that you won't read
http://www.startribune.com/business/145205855.html
How about obamas budget for 2012 that got exactly ZERO votes in the house- heres the link you wont read
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/gop-rep-introduces-obama-budget-measure-gets-0-414-drubbing-video/
and obamas 2011 budget that got as many votes that you won't read
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2011/10/obamas-2011-budget-deficit-the-same-as-2010s/1
 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2012, 04:09:11 PM »
I hate to tell you that cutting taxes spawns economic growth.  Economic growth  creates a wider tax base that generates more total tax dollars.  Not Spin Fact!
Your fact is not a fact.  Here's a certified fact: The DJIA soon after tax cutter Bush left office: ~6200.  The DJIA as of Friday with a Democrat in office: Exactly 13,212.04.  One more tax cut for GWB's billionaire friends and we'd be raising goats.
A, the cut was not enough, He cuit taxes across the board, unfortuantly The Democrats have made it so that 51% of the country is not paying taxes.  As I stated above States like CA raised their taxes more than the tax cut killing any of the economic growth,  The ther was the Attack on 9/11 that was planed under Clinton that helped to kille economic growth.
Economic laws are still economic laws like gravity and no matter the what spin they stick on it The laws of supply and demand still apply.

Offline crustylicious

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2012, 05:41:03 PM »
The argument that tax cuts create or increase revenue is an old myth that simply refuses to go away. The logic behind this argument is that cutting taxes will stimulate spending (since investors now are  now encouraged through reduced tax rates) that will result in GDP growth.  This growth in GDP will result in increased tax revenues so significant that they will more than offset the drop in tax revenues that result from a lowered tax rate. The inverse to this is that increased taxes lower tax revenue by discouraging investment, which in turn lowers tax revenues so drastically, that they offset the added increase coming from the tax rate increase. One of the reasons Republicans and other self-ascribed fiscal conservatives are able to get away with this is, is the superficially plausible argument that the Reagan and/or Bush tax cuts grew the economy and created revenue.  To understand the fallacy of these arguments, it is necessary to understand economic growth during business cycles and over a long period of time, and how this affects tax revenues.Business Cycles: GDP and RevenuesGenerally speaking, when GDP grows or shrinks, revenues grow or shrink along with it ( since the income or earnings being taxed are proportional to GDP).  So while revenues fall when the economy is in a slump or recession, they increase when the economy is in a recovery and certainly during a boom in economic growth. This happens regardless of the tax rates.

 

 
It’s also important to note that over time, GDP grows.  The only time this changes is during economic downturns.  But the general trend is upwards.  GDP grows because the economy grows and because of inflation the value of the dollar falls over time, which also means the dollar value of the GDP grows because of this.  As GDP grows, so will revenue (since a certain percentage of the GDP is taxed, and therefore, tax revenues will remain somewhat proportional).

Correlating Tax Increases and Decreases with RevenueBy conveniently pointing to places where tax cuts were enacted at or around the time of a recovery or boom, tax cut advocates argue that tax cuts increase revenue.   The problem with this is that the revenue increases following the Bush and Reagan tax cuts are dwarfed by the revenue increase following Bill Clinton’s tax increase on the wealthiest Americans.  In fact, as a percentage of GDP, post-Reagan & Bush tax cut revenue falls below the 1965-2005 average. In other words, revenue increased because the economy was recovering/growing, and the tax cuts have little (probably nothing) to do with growth in GDP.  if anything, these tax cuts actually lowered revenue increased from what they would have been otherwise.  So the real question to ask is this: how much revenue did these tax cuts cost us?  See Historical Tax Rates.
Clinton Tax Increase Bush Tax Cut Reagan Tax Cut RevenuesInvestment has been shown to increase both after tax cuts and tax increases.  Investment increased both after Bill Clinton’s 1993 tax increases and after George W Bush’s 2003 tax cuts.  The reason is simple: investors were confident because the economy was growing and therefore felt that it was a good time to invest.  In other words, it’s demand and other market signals that investors care about most, not tax rates.  Tax rates can no doubt play a role (especially if they are disproportionately high), but the tax rate fluctuations between the Clinton vs Reagan and Bush tax rates are rather inconsequential to investor behavior.
Tax Cuts vs Tax Hikes and investmentTaxes on the WealthyOver a longer timeline, we can see if there exists a correlation between taxes on the wealthy and GDP growth.  Unfortunately, we find no correlation between the two.  Cutting taxes on the rich appears to have resulted in no increase in the rate of GDP growth.  According to the logic of tax cut advocates, the post World War II boom should never have happened given that tax rates on the the top earners were exponentially higher than they are now (something to keep in mind when Republicans claim that raising taxes on the rich back to what they were during those disastrous Clinton years (as Obama has been trying to do) will stifle economic growth).
Reagan Tax Cuts: The FactsThe Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981 (also known as the Kemp-Roth Tax Cut) cut the top marginal tax rates from 70% to 50% and the bottom rate from 14% to 11% in addition to cutting capital gains, estate and corporate taxes.  Under the Tax Reform Act of 1986, the top marginal tax rates were reduced further (from 50% to 28%) and increased the bottom rates from 11% to 15% (in other words, taxes on the lowest earners were raised to 1% higher than when Reagan stepped into office.
Many Reagan apologists claim that these tax cuts created the robust economy that followed.  However this ignores ignores the effects of the Federal Reserve’s lowering of interest rates. Reagan also increased military spending and ran up the federal deficit (the combined effect of tax cuts and increased spending).  In other words, Reagan did exactly what Republican pundits who praise him are currently criticizing Obama for.  Reagan advocates claim his tax cuts bolstered the economy while ignoring the lowered interest rates and increased deficit spending (kind of like an ongoing stimulus package).
reagan-deficit-stimulus

 
Bush Tax Cuts: The FactsUnder the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 income taxes were set to reduced rates by 2006, including the top income tax rate which fell from 39.6% to 35% and there were cuts to estate and gift taxes as well.  The Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003 would speed up many of the scheduled tax cuts from the Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001.
Just like situation with Reagan, tax cut advocates claim that the Bush tax cuts stimulated the economy.  But there is little correlation between the two.  And advocates of this ignore the economic effects of the housing boom/bubble (which would burst soon afterwards and lead us to the problems we currently face).  Ironically, the same tax cut advocates who pretend the Clinton tax revenue boom was merely an anomaly caused by the internet bubble/boom simultaneously housing bubble/boom when crediting the Bush tax cuts for this growth.
bush tax cuts facts clinton tax increase
Historical Tax RatesAll of these meandering tax rates can get confusing.  Here are some tables which show historical tax rates.  This may help give readers a better perspective.
Tax Cuts on the Rich and Wealth Disparity
What we can find of course, is a correlation between tax cuts and the wealthy and  wealth/income disparity.

In fact, the eras supply side economics have been attempted (supply side economics argues that cutting taxes on the top earners frees up money at the top, which is then invested back into the economy, filtering down to and benefiting those in the middle and lower income brackets) have been  followed by a decrease in real hourly earnings.

This is important to keep in mind when people on the right complain that those at the bottom pay little/no federal income taxes.  The problem here is that the earnings for people in those tiers have fallen as more of their work has gone towards those at the top. It’s also important to keep in mind that even those who don’t pay federal income taxes are still subject to payroll taxes (and since the social security portion is capped at $106K, the payroll tax rate is actually lower for anyone making over this amount) and whatever state and local taxes they are subject to.  It’s also important to keep in mind that the capital gains tax (where much of the wealth is made) is taxed at a mere 15%.
Warren recently wrote an article on this: Buffett Stop Coddling the Super-Rich
Last year about 80 percent of these revenues came from personal income taxes and payroll taxes. The mega-rich pay income taxes at a rate of 15 percent on most of their earnings but pay practically nothing in payroll taxes. It’s a different story for the middle class: typically, they fall into the 15 percent and 25 percent income tax brackets, and then are hit with heavy payroll taxes to boot.
Back in the 1980s and 1990s, tax rates for the rich were far higher, and my percentage rate was in the middle of the pack. According to a theory I sometimes hear, I should have thrown a fit and refused to invest because of the elevated tax rates on capital gains and dividends.
I didn’t refuse, nor did others. I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off. And to those who argue that higher rates hurt job creation, I would note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. You know what’s happened since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Economic recovery, Obama vs Reagan...
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2012, 06:27:49 PM »
You can make statistics lie all you want.
You are showing Deficits.  The tax in crease you show under Clinton was also the Newt Congress that limited the budget and ballanced the budget creating a surplus.  When you have a responsible Congress that spends the peoples money well and does not spend like drunken idiots you can have a surplus.  The deficits you see under Regan was Tip O'neil going back on his word to cut spending for the tax increases he wanted.  For every tax doller increase they were to cut spending by three.  Instead the increased spending by 3.
No if ands or buts, the Laugher curve shows that tax cuts across the board simply allow more people to have money in their pockets and as you know people do things with money.
Buying, investing, starting up new companies, and saving all add to the economy.
Buying things increase profits, that equals more tax dollars
Investing creates jobs to meet the demand oif new goods
starting new companies employs more people that spend their pay.
Saving even allows the banks to make loans to start new business, buy houses and create credit.
Taking away peoples money, taking away companies money, taking away investors money lowers demand.  Lowering demand for goods and services reduces profits, reduces the work force and lower profits and lower work force simply reduces the total tax dollars.
Disposable income is what makes people spend money and reduces the economy.  Reducing the economy reduces the total tax dollars .
Now with your charts and graphs you make the point to lower taxes to the clinton levels and spending at those levels too.