Author Topic: How do you know when to use dacron filler????  (Read 2841 times)

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Offline Willyp

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How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« on: April 03, 2012, 09:42:29 AM »
Is there a set rule on when to use it? Or a formula as to when??? With what powders should it be used???
Willyp

Offline Rooterpig

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2012, 12:15:46 PM »
I used it when fire lapping a 45 colt bh, with a low dose of red dot.

Offline Swampman

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2012, 12:30:17 PM »
I never use any filler.  IMO it's dangerous and will ring your chamber sooner or later.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline geezerbiker

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2012, 01:03:26 PM »
+1 on never...  Ed Harris a former tech writer for the American Rifleman says the same thing. 

Tony

Offline 336SC

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2012, 02:21:29 PM »
I never use any filler.  IMO it's dangerous and will ring your chamber sooner or later.

Many, many years ago, the NRA printed Swampman's warning!!  Don't do it!  Use a powder which is more case filling.  Also us a powder which has proven to be position insensative!  It's sage advice.
336SC
USN, 10 Jul 1969 - 6 Dec 1973.  NRA Life Member.  Master Mason, Porter Lodge #284, 10th Masonic District.

Offline GH1

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2012, 12:59:45 PM »
It seems to me the use of fillers was common back in the day when folks wanted a light load in a large cartridge. However, with modern bulky powders such as Trail Boss and 5744 I don't believe there is a need.
But that's just me.
GH1 :)
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Offline Swampman

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2012, 01:17:57 PM »
I don't use bulky powders, and I don't use filler.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline mauserand9mm

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2012, 01:21:31 AM »
I'm lead to believe that it's not the filler that's the problem but the empty space in the case. I know people that have rung their chambers using a reduced load with (eg) Unique without fillers, and straight wall cases are the likely candidate for this to happen in.
 
Apparantly it's a very complex issue to do with high velocity pressure waves and is worse when the powder is concentrated at one end (either end). It doesn't seem to be so much of an issue if the powder is distrubuted along the entire length of the case even if it is only a thin layer - some French guy did some testing back when smokeless powder first became available and tried these different scenarios. (Actually it's complex but not uncommon - a similar thing happens in water pipes with high speed transients when valves are opened or closed suddenly, and in electical power distribution when breakers are opened or closed.)
 
This issue has been around for a long time and is also mentioned in Big Game Rifle history. Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double" provides background and references. If I recollect some of the earlier doubles were proofed for Nitro loads but were regulated for the slower blackpowder loads hence the requirement for reduced loads. Fillers are recommended in some instances and Kynoch make foam fillers for some of the big bore cartridges.
 
Interestingly, reduced loads were relatively easy when cordite was around. The long strands would run from case head to rear of projectile so, even if you only have a few strands in there, chamber ringing wasn't an issue because the powder spanned the entire length of the case.
 
Anyway I've messed around with reduced loads in my 458Win with cast, and have discovered the joys of unreliable ignition with the wrong powder, and getting projectiles stuck in the barrel etc. I was trying Unique at one stage and Graeme warned me off using pistol powders (I know it works in others rifles and others swear by it). I then bought his book and saw the photo of the 458 ringed chamber after using Unique loads.
 
I ended up with Trailboss for the 405gn projectiles (in the 458) and this almost fills the space in the case. Apparantly even with full pressure loads the spare space in the case should be less 30%. I use a fast rifle powder behind a 500gn cast with about 20% spare space.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2012, 02:40:16 AM »
I have been looking into reduced pressure loads (sub sonic), most feel the case must contain  30% of case capacity with powder. The problem is with less powder the powder can be below the primer hole in some cases. What can happen is a flash across the top of the powder causing it to burn and create more pressure faster and detonate bursting chamber and bbl. Red dot was a suggested powder . Fillers were avoided
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Offline Swampman

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2012, 03:52:57 AM »
That's a myth, there is no proof at all.  Don't use fillers and you won't have a ringed chamber.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2012, 07:46:17 AM »
That's a myth, there is no proof at all.  Don't use fillers and you won't have a ringed chamber.

Whats the myth ?
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Offline Swampman

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2012, 07:55:37 AM »
Detonation is a myth.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2012, 09:19:16 AM »
Really ? What made the guns blow ?
 
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Offline Swampman

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2012, 11:39:49 AM »
Double charges....every single one of them.  Folks just can't admit they made a mistake.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline GH1

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2012, 01:45:08 PM »
OK, time to reveal my ignorance. Can ayone explain to me what a ringed chamber is?
GH1 :)
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Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2012, 01:55:43 PM »
While it's true that smokeless powders do not "detonate" as such SEE (Secondary Explosian Effect) is real, has been demonstrated and has been proven in a lab.  There is and extensive Handloader article that explains it that is probably about 30 years old. 
 
Wads can lead to "ringed" chambers.  A "filler" used with an appropriate powder is quite safe and benificial.  However, not every powder is appropriate.  Just because someone gave this or that powder, or you "like" to use this or that powder or you have a jug of this or that powder does not make them appropriate to use.  If the loads are reduced a filler, especially a dacron filler will not make an inappropriate powder good to use.
 
Here is a post that is on a "sticky" over on the Cast Boolit Forum regards to the use of dacron (polyester) fillers;
 
 
[font=]I have for many, many years found dacron (polyester fill) to be the best "filler". I use a filler only when appropriate. Many think I always use a filler with every powder....I DO NOT!!!! The use of the filler can cause problems if not used correctly and when appropriate. If the powder is not correct for the bullet/cartridge combination then the filler is not going to make it "right". Many want to use a specific powder for a cartridge because the powder is "cheap" or because "they have a lot of it". There are lots of powders that are not only poor choices to use but that can be dangerous if used in an inappropriate bullet/cartridge combination. Do yourself a favor if you are wanting to use an inappropriate powder (usually "no data" available is an indication the powder might be inappropriate) and get an appropriate powder. You will save yourself a lot of frustration. The use of the dacron filler only makes an appropriate powder perform better. The dacron filler will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
 
 I don't use the dacron filler or a wad with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find one of these fast burning powders that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want and avoid using a filler with them.
 
 I almost always use the dacron filler in rifle cases with the slower “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc. with lighter medium weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 140 - 165 gr bullets in .30/.31 cals of 30-30 through '06 case capacity), the medium burning powders (RL7, 3031, 4895, etc.) up through the slow burning powders (RL19, AA4350, H4831SC, RL22, 3100, etc.) that give around 80% or less loading density under medium to heavy weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 170 - 220+ gr bullets in .30/.31 cals. Those examples are for the .30/.31 cals but the same guidance applies to other calibers. The dacron filler is used only between the powder and base of the bullet.
 
 The “dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting”. It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.
 
 The dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8" thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullet loads. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4" wide. I then "eyeball" cut 1/2" wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr.
 
 A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I've cut some chunks that weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a "snack" baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just "eyeball it" based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks.
 
 Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills" the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That's why I have the different size "chunks" so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and '06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right.
 
 I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 - .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. The 6 to 10" section gives plenty to hold onto and sufficient "feel". Merely hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and shove it in with the rod. Sometimes it takes a couple three pokes to ensure all is inside the case mouth. I poke the chunks in until all the dacron is at the bottom of the neck or at least all in the case. It doesn’t matter exactly where just so long as you don’t tamp it down on the powder as a wad and leaved a space between the base of the bullet and the dacron. [/font]
 
[font=] [/font]
 
What you want to do is push it in to let the base of the bullet finish pushing it down and adding any compression against the powder. Thus I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. Using the right size chunk of dacron this method then provides a "filler" in the air space between the powder and base of the bullet.
 
 A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and an unsharpened pencil works well for .45 cals. With the charged cases in a loading block I simply hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and push it in with the rod.  It is quite easy and a lot of “precision is not required, just get the dacron into the case and let the bullet finish pushing it down.
 
 Larry Gibson
 

Offline Swampman

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2012, 02:46:53 PM »
As I said it's a myth.  It's repeated often, but it's still a myth.  Fillers of any sort will ruin your gun.  Be safe, don't use them.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline mauserand9mm

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2012, 10:46:58 PM »
OK, time to reveal my ignorance. Can ayone explain to me what a ringed chamber is?
GH1 :)
A ringed chamber occurs just ahead of the end of the case and is a narrow band of compressed steel ie the pressure has peaked so high at this point that the steel has been compressed. Looking into the chamber end of the firearm, the compressed ring area is in shadow and looks like a dark ring.
Research shows it's the spare space in the case and fast powders (ie pistol powders) that cause chamber ringing. Fillers have nothing to do with chamber ringing. Please find and read:
Shooting the British Double Rifle by Graeme Wright
The Modern Schutetzen Rifle by Wayne Schwartz and Charles Dell (did extensive testing with a 38-55)
The Modern Shotgun by Major Sir Gerald Burrard (1948 publication)
 
I haven't tracked down the publication for the tests performed by the french scientist but his name was Paul Vieille.
 
Many people will tell you using Unique without fillers will not cause problems, and in most cases it fortuitously won'ts, but I know of a 375Win shooter who did this and ringed his chamber. It wasn't a double charge. To make the ignition reliable his loads were stored primer down (so the powder sat against this end) and he loaded the chamber with the rifle vertical, muzzle up and then slowly lower the rifle to take the shot (keeping the powder towards the back of the case as best as possible). In fact Dell's tests prove fillers have nothing to do with it - fast powders located near the primer gave the highest pressures at the base of the bullet due to "pressure piling". Pressure piling is a known effect in the electrical discipline of the gas industry (also called Hazardous Areas) where one method of preventing a major gas expolsion is to contain it within the electrical wiring enclosure and components.
I'll never use pistol powders for reduced rifle loads again - not worth the risk, I don't want to be in the 1% that damages a chamber in doing so. Note also that this is an issue more relevant to straight wall cases - the neck on bottleneck cases seems to somehow reduce the effect (maybe the pressure wave is attenuated somehow - who knows?). I'll also never use fillers in a bottleneck case. I have no concers over using fillers in a straight wall case, providing the powder is not too fast ie pistol powder.
I gotta admit, I pay more attention to those that test to deliberately cause the chamber ringing, rather than those that empirically try to avoid it. Cast Boolits is a fine website but I don't think the authers there are really offering "bullet-proof" advice on this topic.
One last thing - chamber ringing doesn't actually seem to result in any damage of concern - it occurs ahead of the case and I've never heard of this phenomina (spelling?) causing a rifle blow up, but then again people usually get cautious once this has happened and take steps to prevent it happening again. Maybe repeated ringing will damage a rifle?

Offline Swampman

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2012, 11:59:24 PM »
Everyone says they didn't double charge because that would mean it was their fault.  The thing about this myth is that it's been repeated so often that it's become a "fact"......
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2012, 01:42:36 AM »
Double charges....every single one of them.  Folks just can't admit they made a mistake.

No the articles I read were about reduced charges not double charges . They were keeping loads to or under 1050 FPS. Not sure they would have had a double load that would have been a problem. The goal was a 30% charge or more .
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Offline Swampman

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2012, 06:40:29 AM »
Yes, exactly, they believed they hadn't doubled charged but they had.  Less powder cannot equal more pressure no matter what anyone says.  Folks just don't want to admit they messed up.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline GH1

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2012, 08:52:26 AM »
 It's definately easy to double charge if you're trying to use fast powders to get a reduced load out of big cartridges.
When I first started reloading in '09 components were scarce, as I'm sure everyone remembers.
 Anyway, I initially used AA#2 for my .380, .38, and .357 and let me tell you, 6 gr of AA#2 does not take up much space in a .357 case. I knew nothing of fillers at the time.  Fortunately I was careful and was able to avoid an accident, but I can see where someone could do that, especially in a necked rifle cartridge. That's why I'm such a big fan of Trail Boss. I don't think it's physically possible to double up with T.B.
 #2 is good powder though, and I still use it in my .380.
GH1 :)
 
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Offline Swampman

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2012, 09:07:16 AM »
Unique is cheaper......
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2012, 10:59:42 AM »
Yes, exactly, they believed they hadn't doubled charged but they had. Less powder cannot equal more pressure no matter what anyone says.  Folks just don't want to admit they messed up.

There is more to a round than just total pressure , the rate at which the top pressure is reached also comes into play " the pressure curve " can be a much larger factor than just the total pressure itself , thats why powders come in different burn rates and types .
 
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Offline Swampman

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2012, 12:45:33 PM »
I'm aware of that. 
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2012, 04:04:11 PM »
Apparently you're not aware of the difference between a wad and a filler.  Nor that puting a double charge of 28 gr 4895 in a .308 to '06 capacity cases is an overflow, very obvious and difficult to seat the bullet.  Yes you can "double" charge with a faster burning powder like Unique but most do not recommend a wad or a filler with such powders.  Also I test and measure pressures and have found no evidence of "piling on"  of psi where fast powders are used.  SEE is, in fact, real and is reproduceable.  If you'd care to supply the rifle and will shoot it with loads that produce an SEE I'll tell you how it's done and observe from a safe distance.  If you truely disbelieve and are convinced SEE is a "myth" you'll take me up on the offer.  If you don't take me up then your "belief" SEE is a myth your doubt is obviously not as solid as you state.
 
Larry Gibson

Offline Swampman

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2012, 01:03:42 AM »
Nothing you could produce would convince me I'm wrong.  Detonation cause buy reduced charges is a myth.  Ringed chambers caused by fillers aren't.  Don't use wads or fillers unless you want to ruin your gun.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2012, 06:36:58 AM »
Not trying to convice you;
 
SEE is not a "detonation", that's what/where you misunderstand. 
 
Wads can cause "ringing".  The appropriate use of a "filler" does not cause "ringing".  There is a difference between a "wad" and a "filler"; that also is where you misunderstand.
 
Just pointing that out is all.  The fact that you choose to misunderstand has nothing to do with the reality of either.
 
Larry Gibson

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2012, 09:52:42 AM »
I understand perfectly and knew all this before you'd ever fired a gun.  The use of any filler and or wad will ring your chamber sooner or later.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Spanky

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Re: How do you know when to use dacron filler????
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2012, 11:28:59 AM »
I know of two ways (there are probably more) to ring a chamber and both are proven.
 
1. Leaving an air gap in a black powder cartridge.
2. Using a filler in a smokeless cartridge.
 
There's no sense in arguing whether or not using fillers can cause ringing... it's been proven in lab testing.
 
 
 
Spanky