243 AI and 6.5-06 AI

[Barstooler]

I got both of my AIs back from different gunsmiths this Friday.

Went to the range to do case forming today.

Being old fashioned I went with the advise of using medium loads with the bullets seated into the lands to do fire forming vs. the 15gr of Unique with Cream of Wheat method.

For the 243 AI I selected to use a 70gr Sierra and 35gr of IMR 3031. The cases came out beautiful. Sharp and crisp shoulder and even the fire forming loads were grouping just under 1" at 100 yards. I used this load because I had several boxes of Sierra 6mm 70gr laying around and I had 3 lbs of IMR 3031 left over from when I use to reload the 30-30. BOTTOM LINE: it appears to be a good case fire forming load for the 243 AI.

As for the 6.5-06 AI I elected to use some old Sierra 85gr bullets and 48grs of Vargent. Because of my long throat, I could not get the bullets seated into the lands. Results were not great. About half of the case ended up with poorly formed shoulders, which means this was not a good fire forming load. I will have to redo these cases and I either need to go to a heavier bullet or more grains of Vargent to get the shoulder to blow out properly.

Does anyone have a better load to fire form 6.5-06 AI? I am not interested in Cream of Wheat methods. Nothing personal --- just not interested.

Barstooler

[Nobade]

If the rifle is chambered correctly, you should be able to use factory loads and end up with proper cases. Since there isn't factory ammo for the 6.5 - 06 just find a book load that is close to full power and try that. Varget is WAY too fast for good performance in that cartridge, Retumbo or something in that neighborhood is more appropriate for best performance.

[Barstooler]

I guess I either failed to explain or you did not get the main question of my post.
 
I know I can use full power loads to get great cases.  However, I have a crap load of light weight bullets and I have a bunch of fast powders that are not useful in any of the other calibers that I reload for.....  So rather than wasting good bullets and good powder I was hoping for other options to do case forming.
 
BTW the 85gr bullet and 48grs of Varget powder is the beginning load listed for the 6.5-06 on the Hodgen web site.  I suspect that I could use the max lad for Varget listed on the Hogden web site which is 52gr of Vargent or my next set of options to use "light bullets and unwanted powder" would be to go to a 95gr bullet -- I have plenty of them and/or H380 powder, which is also listed on the Hogden web site.
 
My last resort will be to go to 120gr bullets and probably use 4350.
 
So my question is: "Has anyone used light bullets and faster powders to successfully fire form 6.5-06 AI cases"?
 
Barstooler

[RevJim]

 I never fooled with the 6.5/06, but my .35 Whelen Improved has to have the bullet into the lead to get proper cases. I would stick with around 50gr and the longer bullet, forced into the lands. I found that medium/warm loads do better than starting loads for case forming. Good luck, I bet it is a gorgeous looking case! ha Gotto love those Ackleys!

[Barstooler]

You may be right.  I will try increasing the powder charge, but if that does not work then I can go with the heavy bullets.
 
How do you like that Whelen Ackley??   I shoot a 35 Whelen that I had built in 1966 on a 1903 Springfield action.  I have never regretted building the rifle and have taken more game with it than all my other rifles combined.   It is so damn accurate, I am leary to mess with it!!!
 
Barstooler

[RevJim]

 I "love" my .35 Whelen Improved! It is a 22" barreld Remington 700 Classic ( had a brake added back in 2002 because of an unrelated neck injury and torn retina) It and the 30.06 I am having rebarreled are the only two serious rifles I use anymore! I find I can do everything with my Whelen Imp as I could with a 300 to 338 mag. Heck, it will even do what my old .375 H&H did on plains game. No elephant or buff for me, so I enjoy virtually the same killing power with less blast/kick! gotta love a Whelen!

[Catfish]

If your cases are not forming it`s because your presure is to low, so put in more powder. You may be supprised how accurate your fire form loads are. I usually varmint hunt with my fire form loads. If you use the starting load in the Hodgen manual for the AI, or the max load for the 6.5-06 they should form well. If there is no load listed for the fast powder you are useing just start real low and work up.

[Barstooler]

If your cases are not forming it`s because your presure is to low, so put in more powder. You may be supprised how accurate your fire form loads are. I usually varmint hunt with my fire form loads. If you use the starting load in the Hodgen manual for the AI, or the max load for the 6.5-06 they should form well. If there is no load listed for the fast powder you are useing just start real low and work up.

Catfish,
 
Thanks.  Exactly the input I was looking for.  I was using the starting load for regualr 6.5-06 which was supposed to generate 63K psi.  I will work my way up to a stronger load and see if I get better shoulders.
 
Barstooler

[Barstooler]

If your cases are not forming it`s because your presure is to low, so put in more powder. You may be supprised how accurate your fire form loads are. I usually varmint hunt with my fire form loads. If you use the starting load in the Hodgen manual for the AI, or the max load for the 6.5-06 they should form well. If there is no load listed for the fast powder you are useing just start real low and work up.

Catfish,
 
Thanks.  Exactly the input I was looking for.  I was using the starting load for regualr 6.5-06 which was supposed to generate 63K psi.  I will work my way up to a stronger load and see if I get better shoulders.
 
Barstooler

Catfish
 
Got to the range yesterday and fired 20 rounds with 52gr of Varget and 85gr bullet (Hogden max load for a standard 6.5-06) and 4 of 20 only partially formed the shoulder.
 
Also fired 20 with 140gr Hornady with IMR 4350 seated into the lands and got 20 for 20 shoulders.  Guess this indicates my 6.5-06 AI preferrs the heavy bullet into the lands for case forming.
 
Barstooler

[RevJim]

 I love it when I'm right! ha. I have pulled big wads of hair out fooling with fireforming loads in the past! Not only does a longer bullet jammed into the lands make for a sharper shoulder, it also keeps the web from stretching by holding the case back against the bolt face. In the beginning, I had cases with nice shoulders, but got the light ring smiley after a few loadings. I use the Speer 220 in my Whelen and whatever powder I have on hand, warm loads. I look forward to your load workup with that 6.5/06 Ackley.

[Ready_Aim_Fire!]

I have my first wildcat and I choose the 6.5-06 (not AI) because of all the things i read about its performance. I built it with the help of an gunsmith. The only thing I didn't do was cut the chamber and barrel threads. I built it on a VZ action and a Douglas premium barrel . But in my research I found that for bullets the laupa standard FMJBT has a higher bullet coefficient than their Scenar or Naturalis  bullets granted it not the lightest but it does have the best coefficient
I am reforming  New LC 06 match brass it is difficult but I see it as a learning curve & I got the brass was real cheap. I plan on trying fire forming next with some 243 brass

The only problems I am having is load data their is not a lot of published loads. & most are for lite bullets.

[swifty22]

Bar- Simply set the sizing die to have the datum point on the shoulder of your cases to be FF for a crush fit when chambering. This takes care of any headspace (stretching) problems. If the cases are too short to the datum point FL size them through a 270 FL die and make a false shoulder to crush fit against. That way you don't have to worry about the short bullets but as others say use a fairly healthy load to form the shoulder. This is what I do to make cases for my 375x06 Ackley however as the shoulder is fairly small I can use moderate cast bullet loads, works great.-Muddy

[Don Fischer]

Someone said that a properly cut chamber wont require all this. I have always read that to push the bullet into the lands was the best way which does keep the case back is the chamber stopping web streach. I've also read that don't use full length sized cases. Set the sizer up so there is a little collar near the junction of the neck and shoulder. Supposed to do the same as jambing the bullet into the lands.

[swifty22]

Don above is exactly correct-Muddy

[Barstooler]

I have finished fire forming 200 cases now by seating 140gr Sierra Gamekings into the lands. Defenitely had to go to a heavier load of slower powder.  Got good shoulders with 52grs of IMR 4350.  Accuracy was not great so I relieved some of the glass bedding -- the gunsmith bedded to barrel out to 2 inches beyond the chamber. 
 
Starting to work up loads now with Bergers and Nosler Partitions and RL 22.  Have elected to use coated bullets in this rifle and the 243AI, so bullets have been coated with Boron Nitride.  This will reduce both velocity and pressure so I plan on working those loads up. Got too much planned this weekend so will probably not get to the range until next weekend to try them out.
 
Got the 6.5-06 AI dies pretty quickly from RCBS but have been waiting 2 months for 243 AI dies. They just shipped them yesterday so should be able to get some 243 AI cases loaded by next week.

Ready-Aim, the old PO Ackley manuals do have loads for the 6.5-06 AI but there are not many and slowest powder he had to try was H-4831.  Also found some loads here and there.
 
From Ammo-Guide
6.5 – 06 IMPROVED
The Following data was developed in a custom rifle based on the Remington 700 action. It originally was a 25-06 BDL. The barrel was replaced with a stainless steel fluted Hart barrel, 26 inches long. The factory stock was replaced with a McMillan classical synthetic stock. A Leupold 4.5 – 14X scope was installed in Leupold bases and rings.
All cases were formed from Winchester 270 brass. Federal 210 primers were used throughout the tests.
All groups are 3 shots at 100 yards
 
 
 Powder      Velocity  Group     Bullet
49.0 H4350  2819      1.205  NOSLER 140 GR PARTITION   
50.0           2861       0.862     
51.0           2887       0.603     
52.0           2954       0.870     
 
 
 Powder             Velocity  Group     Bullet
55.0 RELOADER 22  2928  1.623      NOSLER 140 GR PARTITION   
56.0                     2951  0.557     
57.0                     3003  1.139     
58.0                     3082  1.964   

PM me and I will send you the PO Ackley data
 
Barstooler

[RevGeo]

In my 30-40AI I fire factory ammo (well, not really, I buy brass and handload them to regular 30-40 levels) and have had no problems with case forming. The rifle is a single shot Haenel 98 Mauser. I like the rimmed case as headspace is a simple matter. I hunt deer with the unformed 'factory' rounds and them load them to the Ackley levels for elk. It's kind of like having two rifles.
My other Ackley is .22 Sav.HiPower AI in a Richard Marhoff drilling. I have been forming cases from 30-30 brass (I have a small amount of 22 HiPower Norma brass which I hoard) and loading them with cast bullets and Unique for varmint shooting/case forming. I've never used the Cream Of Wheat method, but my late father did and said the 'factory level' method worked out better for him, so that's how I learned.

[Barstooler]

I have finally got the 6.5-06 AI up and running.  Shoots at 0.6 MOA with Berger bullets and a decent dose of RL 22.
 
Barstooler

[Nobade]

Those bullets aren't tipping are they? The holes don't look round. But that may be due to the target's backer too. How does it do at longer range?

[Barstooler]

Those bullets aren't tipping are they? The holes don't look round. But that may be due to the target's backer too. How does it do at longer range?

No. They are not tipping.  130 gr Berger VLD in a 1:9 barrel is doing OK as are 142 gr Sierra MKs.
 
Oddly they both like lower doses of RL 22 because the groups tend to open up as I increase RL22 much above 52-53 grs.  Because of work, I have not been able to get to the range in weeks but am going to try working some loads in slower powders and then try magnum primers to see what happens.
 
Also tried some 140 gr flat base bullets (Nosler partitions), and it defenitely did not like them (1.6 inch groups at 100 yards with 1/2 gr step increases in powder from min to max.

The 243 AI digests just about anything I put through it and keeps 5-shot groups inside .6 MOA and 20-shot groups inside 1.5 MOA.
 
Barstooler