Author Topic: 6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy Shooters  (Read 2187 times)

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Offline DanDeMan

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy Shooters
« on: January 24, 2004, 05:03:43 PM »
Good Evening,

The first phase of testing is complete with regards to using a 6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette.  The rifle is deadly accurate and the recoil is, hey what recoil:-)   We had our monthly SB/HP Silhouette match in misty Sacramento, CA today.  Conditions were muy bueno and a good time was had by all.  Cool and misty in the great Terminator State on the Best Coast.

Any way, after years of shooting silhouette starting with Big Bore pistol silhouette back in '79, sure seems to this boy that recoil is the # 1 bane of HP Silhouette.  Next in line on the bane scale is wind deflection.  What to do, what to do, to drive down both of those scalawags?  Well, the manly mantra is "Shoot The BC's."  What is meant by that is shoot the highest BC bullet available in your caliber that will stabilize and shoot accurately.  Marginally stabilized bullets follow funny paths through their all to short free-flight lives.  You don't what to go there, no way Jose!

Now that the above spiel has set the stage, on to “for why” the 6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette.  The abridged version starts with a review of the obvious, that is the most popular caliber for those in the know in silhouette is the 6.5mm.  The reason is that caliber, given the readily available bullets in that caliber, offers the best balance of tradeoffs between, ram knockdown performance, wind deflection and recoil.  Formally stated the optimum balance of tradeoffs for HP Rifle Silhouette is that load that will deliver 95 to 98 percent ram performance with minimum recoil and wind deflection.  The selection of 6.5mm bullets delivers on that optimization goal.  There is actually a better caliber, but shooting it requires the design and purchase of costly bullet dies to manufacture a short animal bullet.

If you accept the above paragraph, the next question is which 6.5mm cartridge is optimum.  Since we accept that 140-grain VLD's out of 8-twist barrels is the standard, which also qualifies as a readily available optimum solution, the next question is what MV is best for the rams?  From much testing and match shooting it seems that between 2,700 and 2,800 fps is about optimum.  For the short animals most are shooting 107 Sierras or 108 Lapuas.  Those of you that are shooting the 95-grainers are OK as long as there is not much wind, but out here they are not a good choice as wind deflection is enemy # 2 and we are often in mortal combat with enemy # 2.

So, the above begs the question, which cartridge?  First the minimum size cartridge that will produce a 2,700 to 2,800 fps MV with a 140-grain VLD is about right.  The 6.5 x 08 is over capacity and therefore falls into the overbore category.  That means that one will collect more recoil and sustain accelerated barrel throat erosion compared to a smaller capacity cartridge.  The 6.5 BR, if throated properly is an excellent choice, the 6.5 TKS is in my NSHO is just about right concerning the optimization process.  So, why the 6.5 TCU, which has holds only 29 to 30 grains of N150 if the reamer is designed to shoot the 140 VLD's compared to the 6.5 TKS which can hold 35 grains of N150 and produce 2,775 fps with a 140 VLD.  The answer is; there was an old BSA 223 bolt-faced action and a bunch of spare parts to build a rifle with as well as an old JGS 7 TCU reamer that had been collecting 25 years worth of dust.  The reamer was reworked by Dave at Pacific Precision.  Dave did an excellent job and quick too.  AND, most importantly it sounded like fun.

And, fun it is to shoot.  One can shoot the rifle with a light, small-bore style grip, as there is so little recoil.  The C, P & T load is 26 grains of N140 that launches a 140 AMAX to 2,250 fps.  The reason that bullet is shot for the short animals is that the chamber is designed for seating that bullet so the base of the boattail is at the shoulder/neck junction for max case capacity.  Also, it should be noted that that round has less recoil and wind deflection that the typical 107 Sierra load launched at 2,700 fps.  Why that is so is food for another discussion.  The ram load is 29 grains of N150 with the same A-MAX bullet.  This load produces a MV of 2,520 fps.  That is a marginal MV for rams.  If the rams are not bent and set properly and there is no wind holding them up, the rams should just about all go down.  The Lapua cases only hold 29 grains of N150, but the Remington cases that still need to be fire-formed should hold 30 grains.  This case is so efficient due to its small size compared to the bore that 1 grain of N150 produces an extra 90-fps.  So, 30 grains of N150 should produce a MV of just over 2,600-fps with no excess pressure.

This little puppy is a joy to shoot.  Several of the guys had a go at giving it a try at the range today.  I'm thinking that there will be more of these rifles on the line in the future for those that are more interested in fun than punishment at the ram line.  For a youngster or petite woman or any of you old guys that are suffering from shoulder pain from too many years of recoil abuse I'm thinking that the 6.5mm TCU, if throated properly, could be in your collective futures.

All the best,

Dan Theodore
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline lucho

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It shoots really nice
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2004, 03:12:24 PM »
What Dan says about recoil is not an exageration.  I was at the Sacramento match this weekend and Dan let me shoot his 6.5TCU,

The recol was very light.  Asside from that shooting the same bullet (although not the same load) for all the animals would be nice.  I like things simple and buying one bullet would be simpler.  And I would assume  .223 brass is cheaper than 6.5 BR brass.  And easyer to get.  Heck you can pick Winchester up at just about any range, but I have never seen anyone not pick up a piece of BR brass.  However, probably a little more expensive.  Sierra 107 are cheaper than Sierra 142's.

Speaking of Sierra 142's.  Dan  Why did you pick the 140 VMax over the Sierra 142?

Seems to me if you had a .223 action, this would be a nice round.  

Lucho

Offline DanDeMan

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2004, 08:46:42 PM »
Yo Lucho,

I picked the 6.5mm 140 A-Max for use with the 6.5TCU rifle because they were cheap.  The 142 Sierra as well as the 139 Lapua all seat about the same as the A-Max so there is no reason not to use them with this particular chamber.

At gun shows one can usually find good deals on used 223 rifles and with an 8-twist 6.5mm barrel you are good to go.  I got the 6.5TCU Hornaday dies off-the-shelf.

Later,

Dan Theodore
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline ajj

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2004, 03:33:29 AM »
Yo, Dan, what it is? Good to see you here!
A 140 at over 2500 from such a small case is simply amazing, at least to me. Very interesting.

Offline DanDeMan

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2004, 08:08:01 AM »
Alston,

Ya, it is amazing the velocities one can achieve out of little bitty cases.  The 6.5TCU is a hoot to look at as the bullet sticks out quite a bit.  My 7DST (7mm  PPC Improved) is even funnier looking.  The 180 JLK is longer than the case.  With 31 grains of VarGet it launches the 180-grain bullet to 2,325 fps.  The bullet has such a high BC that the little round will knock over rams better than any 260 on the line, or most 308’s for that matter.  Bullet efficiency is where it's at.

Here's a picture of the 6.5TKS, 7DST, 6.5TCU & 260 Ram loads.  The 6.5TKS is based on a 6mmBR Lapua case and is loaded with a 141 GTB, 35 grains of N150 that produces a MV of 2,775 fps.  The 7DST is based on a 6PPC case and is loaded with a 180 JLK over 31 grains of VarGet which produces a MV of 2,325 fps.  Next, the 6.5TCU is based on the 223 case and is loaded with a 140 A-Max powered by 29 grains of N150 that generates a MV of 2,520 fps.  Finally, the 260 is loaded with a 139 Lapua over 43.5 grains of N160 that wings down range starting at 2,825 fps.

The picture is on a MSN Black Powder Cartridge Rifle board.  Copy the below URL into your browser to access the site.

http://groups.msn.com/BlackPowderSilhouette/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=1204

Of all four cartridges pictured above, the 7DST knocks down rams the hardest, but is only surpassed by the 6.5TCU in reduced felt recoil.  Terminal momentum at 500 meters for each round, terminal energy is not an appropriate metric for comparing ram knock-down are as follows:

Terminal 500 meter Momentum, Velocity & Recoil from a 10-lb rifle:
6.5 TKS -- 1.23 - 1,960 fps - 9.8 ft-lb of recoil
7DST ----- 1.36 - 1,698 fps - 10.1 ft-lbs of recoil
6.5TCU -- 1.12 - 1,790 fps - 7.6 ft-lbs of recoil
260 -------- 1.29 - 2,064 fps - 11.4 ft-lbs of recoil

The calculated recoil for the 7DST is a bit higher than the 6.5TKS, but the felt recoil is lower.  The recoil calculation method used by most is not an accurate measure because barrel length and caliber effect felt recoil and none of the current methods take those two parameters into account.

As you can see the 7DST ram load has the highest terminal momentum.  But, that is not the whole story as the heavier bullet is more efficient at transferring terminal momentum to the 50-lb ram.  The bullet dwell-time is longer and more of the terminal momentum is transferred to ram knock-down as a function of how much energy is used up in blowing up the bullet on steel.

There will be some more 6.5TCU testing with N550 powder.  I'm thinking that 2,650 to 2,700 fps should be doable with the 140 A-Max.

Regards,

Dan Theodore
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline Troy G

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Always Playing
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2004, 05:03:56 PM »
Nice to see you are still playing Dan.  Is the quest for the Holly Grail of silhouette cartridges over or has it just begun?

Offline Troy G

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7 TKS
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2004, 05:12:53 PM »
Dan have you played with a 7 TKS?  What 7mm 180s are you using in your other concoction.  I thought the jackets of the Bergers and the JLKs might be a bit soft.

Offline JimInNJ

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2004, 01:56:56 AM »
Dan,

Looks like you have been busy.  I had feared that your quest for the Holl Grail of silhouette cartridges had been overcome by your quest for the Holl Grail of BPCR bullets.  It’s great to see that you found your way over here.



Is that the actual seating depth you are using for your 6.5 TKS?  It looks to be a lot further out than mine.  Could explain why I have never gotten the velocities you do.

My print from Dave Kiff shows a lead or free bore of .209" resulting in a total of 1.776" from bolt fact to end of lead / beginning of throat.  Is that the same revision you are using?

- Jim

Offline DanDeMan

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2004, 09:13:36 AM »
Troy,

The 6.5TKS was originally designed after first considering a 7TKS.  For rams, an 8-twist 7TKS is IMHO the ultimate silhouette round.  The 7TKS would be easily capable of launching the 180-grain JLK to 2,400 fps with no excess pressure.  The 500-meter terminal momentum from that round would rule the rams.

The reason for going with the 6.5TKS was because there were no high BC lighter bullets for C, P & T's in 7mm.  About the best out there is the 139 Hornaday SBT with a 2,400 fps BC of about 480.  A set of Nemi bullet making dies was designed for a 7mm, 140-grain VLD that would have had about a 580 BC.  That would have made the 7TKS more attractive, but the $3,000 cost for the set of dies and fuss of making the bullets put me off.

Here is how I go through the process of assessing the balance in trade-offs between cartridges for silhouette.  First and foremost reduced recoil and then wind deflection are considered.  Assuming 1/4 MOA accuracy should be a given for an experienced reloader shooting a rifle built to match quality specifications.  When that process was applied to the development of an efficient, effective HP silhouette cartridge the decision came down to the 6.5TKS or 7TKS.  Here is what sealed the direction.

Wind deflection at the turkey line in a 10 MPH crosswind and recoil were used to make the determination.  Since then I have shot the 6.5TKS and a tight-necked, throated 7BR quite a bit so the numbers used are actual, not estimated except of course for the recoil, which is calculated using the less than accurate method currently used by most.

Cartridge-Bullet--------MV---------385m Wind Deflection--Recoil
6.5TKS----107 Sierra--2,750 fps--15.9"---------------------5.9 ft-lbs
7BR/TKS--139 SBT.....2,300 fps--18.1"---------------------6.4 ft-lbs
6.5TCU----140 Amax--2,250 fps--13.8----------------------6.1 ft-lbs

As you can see the 7mm round suffers from higher recoil as well as wind deflection.  Sure the 7mm, 180 JLK will perform better on rams, but the cumulative recoil from the short animal load and more importantly, as the recoil difference is not that great, the loss of turkeys due to more wind deflection tilted the decision in the 6.5TKS direction.  The 6.5TCU short animal load was included for comparison.  That load begs loading the 6.5TKS with 140 A-max bullets at 2,250 fps also.  I currently shoot the 140 A-max in my hunter HP 6.5 x 08 at 2,250 fps for the short animals due to the reduced felt recoil and wind deflection.  Also, those pesky rung pigs with the 107 Sierras are not a problem with the 140 A-max.  We all seem to ring one of those now and then.

Regards,

Dan Theodore
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline DanDeMan

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2004, 09:36:41 AM »
Jim,

The bullet seated in the 6.5TKS is the Bob Carterucio 141 VLD.  It seats out a bit further than any of the other 140-grain class VLD's.  I don't have the original 6.5TKS reamer as it is loaned out to a friend or I'd measure the freebore.  From the print I have the 0.2640" diameter freebore is 0.1880" long followed by a 1/2 degree per side leade.

If I lock my calipers to 0.2620" and then slide the bullet, in the loaded round, nose first into the caliper jaws it scribes a mark that is 1.850" from the base of the case.  Also, moly-coated bullets can be set out further than naked bullets so that also increases powder capacity a bit.

Regards,

Dan Theodore
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline DanDeMan

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2004, 09:48:42 AM »
Jim,

The cartridge length of the 6.5TKS is 1.550".  It your freebore is 0.209" long AND the lead angle is 1/2 degree per side, your bullets should stick out at least as far as mine. Bullets start to engrave at about 2/1000ths less diameter than the bullet shank diameter.  So, when the 1/2 degree per side leade is trig’ed out, that adds another 0.1146" to your 0.209" long freebore.  That would mean that the distance from the base of a loaded round, assuming the bullet is engraving the lands and the case is 1.550" long, to the 0.262" bullet diameter on the nose ogive would be 1.550 + 0.209 + 0.1143 = 1.8733".  If we load a 141 Carterucio in your case so that the bullet engraves the lands in your barrel it should stick out further than my loaded round.

Regards,

Dan Theodore
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline bgjohn

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2004, 01:02:44 PM »
Ew !  Ew! This post is giving me a woody! I'm a big fan of the 6.5 TCU. 8)
JM
I know nothing. I am only a messenger.

Offline lucho

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to many variables!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2004, 07:05:08 AM »
Dan:

Help me out here.  It looks to me that you are comparing different situatuations.  What would the recoils be for different the different cases if you loaded them with the same bullet and gave each case enough powder to give the same muzzle velocity?  So compare for example:

6.5BR
6.5TUC
6.5x08
with a Sierra 142 going all with the same muzzle velocity.  

To me they should all have the same recoil, wind deflection, and terminal velocity.  The only difference might be the amount of powder needed to get to a specified velocity.  (Which now that I think about it, might mean different recoils.)

What I am getting at is that the 6.5 seems to be the all around best bullet.  What is the best all around case size?

Lucho

Offline JimInNJ

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2004, 07:24:13 AM »
Dan,

According to my print I have a throat angle of one and a half degree per side.  Three times yours.  I've never been much good at triganometry, but measuring the reamer I can see that it gets down to 2/1000 under bullet size just a few thou beyond the end of the lead.

- Jim

Offline DanDeMan

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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2004, 07:50:14 AM »
Yo Luch,

Start with the end result desired first.  From extensive range testing it has been shown that between 2,700 and 2,800 fps is optimum for the 140-grain, 6.5mm VLD's at rams.  Faster than 2,800 fps and there seems to be no payback in ram knockdown, only an increase in recoil, not a good thing.  Much below 2,700 fps MV and one begins to ring a few more rams.  So, the end result specifies the minimum case size that will launch a 140-grain VLD to between 2,700 and 2,800 fps.  The optimum case dimension has about the same body length (case web to shoulder) to case diameter ratio as a 55-gallon drum or 2xD = case body length.  Also a sharp shoulder angle improves powder burn for enhanced efficiency.  The 6.5 TKS is just about perfect.

Also, barrel length effects felt recoil.  A few years back a 27" 6.5TKS barrel was cut back twice to determine if in fact my recoil theory would hold.  That recoil theory is that most of the felt recoil is a function of the hot, high-pressure gas exiting the barrel behind the bullet.  If that was not so, muzzle brakes would not work.

During the test there was a control rifle with a 24" barrel that was chambered with the same reamer so the same ammo was used by both rifles.  When the short animal and ram loads were shot in the 27" barreled rifle, both rifles were weighted the same, the recoil was noticeably milder than the 24" barreled rifle.  Next the 27" barrel was cut back to 24", the same length as the control rifle's barrel.  Felt recoil for both rifles with both loads was the same.  Finally the test barrel was cut back to 20".  The 20" barreled rifle produced more felt recoil with both loads AND the MV was LOWER!!!

Results interpretation was that the higher-pressure gas from the shorter barrel, as the volume is smaller at barrel exit, contributed substantially to recoil.

Another finding is that for the same powder charge a heavier bullet will produce a milder feeling recoil as the bullet acceleration is slower so that part of the total recoil is spread over a longer time period.  Another way of thinking about it is that the impulsive force is lower for the heavier bullet.  If we could make a 165-grain 6.5mm bullet and launch it at say 2,500 fps it would have lower felt recoil and better ram knockdown.  That is in the works for 8-twist barrels.

When the next 6.5TKS barrel is fitted it will have a fluted Palma taper with a 28" finish length.  No more reverse tapers for me.

There you have it.

Later,

Dan Theodore
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline DanDeMan

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2004, 07:54:56 AM »
Jim,

The 1.5 degrees per side is the reason your cartridge OAL is shorter than mine.  You only have 38/1000ths in front of your freebore before your bullet engages the lands.  With 1/2 degree per side mine has 114/1000ths.

Regards,

Dan
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline lucho

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by your logic
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2004, 11:11:27 AM »
Dan "The Answer Man"

So since for knocking down rams the optimum velocity for a 140ish 6.5mm bullet is 2700 to 2800 ft/s, the 6.5TCU at 2520 ft/s is sub-optimum.  But if one was looking for less recoil it might not be a bad compromise.  Besides you may make up for 1 or 2 lost rams by getting more short animals due to the light recoil.  Correct?

Now help me some more.

With the 6.5TKS you get 2775ft/s with 35gn N150 or 79 ft/s-gn

With the 6.5 TCU you get 2520 ft/s with 29gn N150 or 86ft/s-gn

Looks like the TCU is more efficient?  It also looks like if you could get 32gns of N150 in the 6.5TCU you'd get 2750ft/s.  I am assuming powder charge and velocity are linearly related.  Is that not the case?  And is the 6.5TCU case full at 29gnd N150?

Luhco

Offline JimInNJ

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6.5 TCU for HP Silhouette - For Recoil Shy
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2004, 05:01:48 AM »
Something in the system hiccupped causing this topic to disappear from the forum index for a while.  It looks like I got it back, but to be safe I will lock this topic and we can continue the discussion on the 6.5TCU thread that Dan started.

- Jim