Increasing double action hammer movement.

[corbanzo]

Well, just took my RB out to increase the lead population of the Seward, Alaska forest.  Increased it well.  Still shootin straight and not one hicup.  Good ignition every time, and hammer not smackin the snot out of the frame.  I feel like an idiot for not noticing that mark on the frame where the hammer was hitting before.  Hitting hard enough to dent metal then for sure would make a difference.  If this topic is helping anybody else out there, definitely one of the first things to check.
 
To test it, I took a red marker, dry fired the gun, and saw where the hammer was hitting the frame.  It was obvious where it was hitting at first, but then I ground it down, remarked with red marker and tested again.  Once it was barely getting any red on the front of the hammer I stopped. 
 
And now I don't have to buy those dumb federal primers with their huge boxes!  If anybody from federal cartridges is reading this.... please use smaller boxes, they take up way too much shelf space, and thats why I don't use your primers unless they are the last thing in my LGS....

[gunnut69]

Carbanzo the system you are working with is called a transfer bar system. The pin protrusion is NOT controlled by the stop foot on the hammer. Pin protrusion is controlled purely by the dimensions of the pin, its return spring, and the hole they reside in. Usually the pin won't protrude from the breach face with ransfer bar fully down. This is called an inertial firing pin. The energy from the hammer fall is transfered to the firing pin, and thusly to the primer, thru the transfer bar.. I would advise against grinding the stop foot off the hammer as the transfer bar may well be damaged..but there won't be any advantage, for certain.. S&W's use a reverse of the system and the bar you see actually stops the hammer fall without the trigger being pulled. In their world there is no transfer bar..most others use the transfer bar system, where the bar is raised into position to carry the energy to the firing pin only when the trigger is pulled.

[corbanzo]

I didnt grind it all the way off, still like the safety system.  Just down enough so it wouldn't smack the piss out of the frame. As I took it down I snap fired it to make sure it wasn't touching the firing pin without the transfer bar up.


And since the hammer was hitting the frame previous to the transfer bar being completely down, it did in fact hinder pin protrusion, which changing the height of the hammer foot did in fact control said protrusion.  I now get greater protrusion, and my hammer isn't leaving marks in my frame during normal firing.


I know how the whole deal works. Not my first go round cowboy.

[gunnut69]

In a transfer bar system the energy is transferred to the bar and by the bar to the pin. Protrusion is physically limited by the pin and it's hole and spring dimensions. You can prove this by depressing the bar manually and noting the protrusion..or lack of it. The pins momentum pulls it away from the bar before it impacts the primer...i.e. it is a 'inertial' firing pin..not a direct impact pin...  I would guess your action is not too damaging to the weapon but you did little to no good..and are stressing the hammer/bar mechanism excessively. The area impacted by the hammer is supposed to act as a stop, now the transfer bar and the area behind it is absorbing the extra energy..

[corbanzo]

I know how it works.

But the fact is simple - I now have greater pin protrusion.  The hammer was limiting that protrusion by contacting the frame. If I press on the transfer bar, or if I drop the hammer and hold the trigger, the pin before stuck out further pressing on the transfer bar, and less with the hammer down - it is now more even. 

I also have increased distance where the hammer is falling and giving that energy to the pin through the transfer bar.  If the transfer bar is not held forward by the hammer against the frame and only "smacks" it forward without maintaining the momentum from the weight of the hammer behind it - it will be horribly inefficient at transferring that energy into the firing pin. 

How those two combined do "little to no good" are in your mind. 

If you have a gun you are worried about damaging your transfer bar or your frame from your hammer dropping... you need to turn that weak metalled dealer into a paper weight and get something made out of steel. 

Take for example the design of Freedom arms where the transfer bar is part of the hammer.  Mean to give direct energy straight into the firing pin with the full weight of the hammer and transfer bar.  They designed it that way to be more reliable and efficient at transferring energy. 

[SHOOTALL]

well gee it was the transfer bar ......... if not adjusted correctly it will snap off with use .

[corbanzo]

Well geeeeeeeeee.... alright alright credit due.  Thank you to SHOOTALL for bringing up the transfer bar and markering parts to see their movement! 


(even though the transfer bar and its movement is perfectly fine, and its just what hits either end of the transfer bar;)


but thank you.

[SHOOTALL]

welcome , 

[gunnut69]

The pin was prutruding to it's max from the inertia before you altered the system.. You added nothing to the success of the system by grinding the hammer! If the success of the ignition was based on the few thousandths longer travel then perhaps you are the one with a problem.. This attitude of yours will end now....or I will ban you from this sight.. You can disagree all you want but respectfully.. I won't tolerate your attitude further. Behave or be gone. No foul language even just initials.!

[corbanzo]

Did you really just threaten a mod with banning?  Y

[corbanzo]

I'm just not sure how you don't see the difference in the hammer pressing the transfer bar fully against the frame with all it's force as opposed to just smacking it.

Because I disagree with you is no reason to try and call for banning. If you would like me to get GB involved in this let's do it, but I will not be belittled and disrespected in this manner. 

I will alter my post so it says weak instead of p.o.stuff. for your pleasure.

If you want to discuss firearms further that is fine, but DO NOT get in my face on a personal level. If you don't like the fact that I disagree with your points, then don't be part of the discussion.  It is that simple.  I have in no way attacked or disrespected you.  You have given counterpoints in the very same way I have, as is part of the discussion - and as is apparent neither of us plan to give course on our beliefs when it comes to physics.  How you have arrived at your conclusions is once again beyond me, but you need to calm down, and accept examples as examples.

[corbanzo]

Now if you would like a concrete example of what I am talking about - take a baseball bat. Have a ball on a tee and swing it and hit it - see how far it goes.

Then, swing at the same speed, but let go of the bat when it hits the ball. The ball will go much less of a distance because the of newtons third law of motion. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The bat hitting the ball makes resistance, like the transfer bar hitting the firing pin. If the batter is not behind the bat through the entire swing, that reaction - the opposing force of the ball towards the bat will have much more affect on the bat itself because it has less mass.  If the batter is holding the bat, then the bat has it's as we'll as the batters mass and inertia behind it.

When the hammer falls, if it is not behind the transfer bar during its entire contact with the firing pin, the firing pins opposing force will affect the speed of the transfer bar, and will not be pushed as hard as if the hammer was backing the transfer bar the entire time.

So though the pin may protrude the same under no resistance - when it hits a resisting force (primer) it needs the added energy imparted by the hammer (inertia) to maintain its forward travel and make dependable ignition.

[gunnut69]

The protrusion is fixed mechanically. The energy applied to the pin will be the same. Increasing the moment of impact will only decrease the period that the pin travels on inertia alone. P roviding a tiny fraction of greater energy.. The piont I made was that you altered the disposition of leftover energy..perhaps to the detriment of the firearm. Your attitude will improve..discuss yes..berate, belittle,, etc..no.. period. Good luck with the taurus.

[corbanzo]

But the protrusion of the pin is stopped by the primer, so more energy into the pin = more protrusion into the primer = better ignition.  Especially with the weight of the hammer behind the primer for longer.  Altering the "disposition of leftover energy" into the the transfer bar, and thus into the firing pin is in fact the goal.


Take an unloaded revolver, pull the trigger and hold the trigger down, look at the firing pin.  See that protrusion?  That means the hammer is forcing the firing pin into the primer with its inertia, not only the inertia of the firing pin.  The pin doesn't just bounce back and forth unassisted after the initial hit from the hammer.



Instead of arguing more I'll tell you what - when I initially modified the firing pin, I ordered a couple more from taurus.  The firing pin and the hammer have been the only two things I've modified since having a large failure rate.  So I'm home from work from the oilfield about 17 days...(hopefully, haha)   I'll throw one of the unmodified firing pins in, so the only difference will be the hammer.  So then we will see if it helps or not.