H/T ATS-34 and 01

[matt d]

I have not yet made a knife but plan on it soon.  I have purchased a couple bars of 01 and one bar of ATS-34.  I have heard that the H/T for ATS-34 is a pain in the neck.  Of course I didn't think to ask this before I bought it.  I have heard that the 01 is about as simple as it gets.  What are the best ways to H/T these steels?  Also, when in the proccess do I H/T?

[TimWieneke]

Don't know ATS-34.  I believe it's an air hardening steel.  Does texas knifemaker's supply harden that stuff?

As far as O-1, yeah you probably couldn't ask for a more user-friendly steel.  All you do is heat it up till when you put a magnet up to it, it will no longer attract the magnet, then dunk it point first into a container of oil.  After that you check it with a file to make sure it's hardened (run a file across the edge, if it skates across but doesn't bite - you're good).  Next you "draw" the temper out which basically means that you heat the tang and back of the knife until you get the soft back, hard edge you want.  Sand the blade so it's nice and shiny so that you can watch the pretty colors.  I like to first heat the blade so that a dark straw color runs through the whole blade - getting darker to a blue at the spine and blue at the tang.  I also believe in a dark straw to almost light violet at the tip - you never know what yahoo is gonna think you've made a throwing knife and throw it at a nail embedded tree.  A darker (thus slightly softer) tip helps resist chipping.  This is one heat to heat treat 0-1.

The other way is to heat your blade up to non-magnetic, get a trough of oil (here's where the lady of the house's baking pans can come in handy  :wink: ) and point one end north - check w/ compass.  Now dip only the edge of the blade into the oil for a little bit.  After a little bit, move the rest of the blade under the oil and keep it there.  DO NOT swish side to side - it can warp your blade.  If you have to move the blade, move it backwards and forwards.  After this, check your edge to make sure it hardened, sand and then heat the whole thing until it gets a dark straw throughout.  The spine of your blade should not have hardened the way your edge did so this is one way to get the soft spine - hard edge.

Beyond these 2 basic processes, it's all a matter of preference.  Some like a color just approaching violet for larger, chopping knives....  Some like to use some oils for quenching (the most pleasant smelling is corn oil - smells like popcorn) - while some prefer to use automatic transmission fluid.  I have used the automatic transmission fluid before and it's nice because if you get the blade to nonmagnetic, get alot of smoke, but no fire and the file skates - you know for sure you did your heat treat perfectly.  If, however, you get a fire when you dunk your blade in the atf fluid, you know that it was too hot right before the quench and you can start over without going too far.  Also, I am approaching this assuming you're going to do your first knife by grinding/filing.  If you're going to forge the knife, shoot me a pm.  There's one more step you should do.  

Tim

[matt d]

Tim,
thanks for your detailed reply.  While heating your blade is there a rule of thumb.  Is there a certain color or time? or do I just heat it till its not magnetic?  I also bought some 5160 to try forging, I have realized that forging may not be the direction I want to go becasue of cost, can 5160 be grinded like 01, or does it have to be forged?

[TimWieneke]

Forging = Cost?  Pah!  If you got a few pieces of rebar, a hairdryer, a big sledge, a little sledge, a pair of long-handled pliers and safety glasses you have everything you need to forge.  If you're interested, lemme know.

Anyhoo, 5160 can be ground pretty much just like 0-1.  As far as heating till non-magnetic, there are so many variables such as your heating source, weather around you and such that I would say just keep heating it and checking it till it gets non magnetic.  The metal will be somewheres around bright red to orange depending on your lighting.  Magnets never lie.  Here's a tip, get a long piece of hanger wire and a doughnut shaped magnet from the hardware store and you can keep checking the magnetism of the piece without taking it out of the fire and without singing your knuckle hairs.

Tim

[matt d]

Tim,
I guess I'm just getting frustrated because I'm spending a lot of money on getting going.  I was looking at anvils on the internet and couldn't find one for under $200.  I don't even know why a person would want to forge, exept to make knives out of files and springs and stuff.  Are there advantages to forging?

[Joel]

Can't answer your questions on forging, never tried it, but Heat treating Ats-34 at home will probably cost you a lot more to get set up than forging supplies. Heat treating AtS-34/154CM, bg-42, CPM-30V etc is a fairly involved process, which to get an optimum blade involves some accurate heat applications(soaking, heat treat cycle, double temper) PLUS Extreme cold, i.e; cryogenic cooling(cooling in liquid nitrogen to -300 degrees F or in dry ice/acetone< very dangerous procedure> to around -107 degrees F>.  This is for an Optimimal blade.  The required equipment is expensive, although you can find used furnaces etc if you look around.   Unless you are well off enough to indulge yourselves(doesn't sound like the case here), you're bettre off seeking a competant heat treater.  It's posible a search of your local yellow pages might yield one in your area willing to do small jobs, but there are at least 4 places you can send your blades to be heat treated at a fairly resonable cost:  Texas Knifemakers supply, K&G Supply, Paul Bos, and Alton D'Holder(D'holder of knifemaking fame).  I personall used D'holder for Ats-34, 154Cm and Bg-42; and Texas for D-2 and A-2.  I can give you addresses if you can't locate them.

[TimWieneke]

Hi Matt,
Good anvils are expensive, but you really don't need an anvil to forge knives.  A 4" x 4" by three foot steel post works great.  Heck, the nepalese forge their huge kukris on sledgehammer heads.  You just take a sledgehammer, sink one side of the head in stiff ground so that the handle is flat against the ground.  This will work as an anvil.  I forged a tomahawk from a railroad spike this way.  Basically you get any good sized chunk of tool steel with a couple inches by couple inches blat surface and it will work for forging.  Check your local scrap yard.  You'd be surprised what you can find.

As far as advantages to forging - well there's more fire and that's always fun.     Also, as you said you can make knives out of files, springs and all other kinds of cool (and sometimes free) stuff.  Now, some people will contend that forging gives steel a more uniform grain structure thus giving the knife better performance than a ground knife.  They say this is because when you heat steel then bang on it, you basically compact the steel and make it denser (I could get uber-techy on this, but I'll hold off on that).  This is supposed to make the knife perform better.  While in the very technical sense, this may make the grain structure more uniform.   I don't know that I buy the argument that this makes the knife perform noticeably better  - especially considering that you can buy hot rolled barstock, which basically makes the grain structure uniform enough anyway.  The final advantage to forging is that you get these really big, beefy arms from swinging a blacksmith hamer!   :grin:


Tim

[matt d]

Thanks guys,
I'll see what I can do and post an update.  I think what I am going to do is work with 01 for a while and if I feel the need, I'll branch out.  I will send the ATS-34 to get h/t.

[HL]

Texas Knife Makers heat treats ATS34 and 154CM same as does Texas Heat Treating in Round Rock.

You need special furnaces for the ATS34. It's a lot more involved than heating and dunking in oil.

[JeffG]

My hat is off to those who make knives of 01, as knife buyer, and user, I LOVE the stuff!