Author Topic: BLACK POWDER and wild fires! (Read 1078 times)

Blaster · « **on:** July 01, 2012, 03:06:32 AM »

Need some recommendations and will appreciate ONLY some serious ones due to the magnitude of this potential problem.
With one wildfire currently only around 15 or 20 miles away from us (we live on a little 35 acre hunk of land on the far South end of Colorado, consisting of a lot of hills with many many ponderosa, pinion, cedar trees, cactus, rocks and a lot of scrub oak brush) I am now wondering about my little accumulation of black powder. Have about 10 or 15 pounds of various grades of black powder, stored in a large fiber glass container, all are in one pound containers in both tin and/or plastic. Don't really want to cart it along IF we have to bug out/evacuate and hate to think of it staying home and jeopardize the safety of any fire fighters. Also, don't like the thought of just digging a hole and burying this stuff.
I'm just looking for some serious (non-bull crap) suggestions so please keep the funny stuff to yourself. Many thanks!!

keith44 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 01, 2012, 03:16:09 AM »

15 pounds in an enclosed could be...well like you said you want to keep people safe. Do you have room in a refrigerator or freezer to put it if you have to leave?? if not maybe an oven?? Other than that no suggestions. Best wishes.

armorer77 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 01, 2012, 03:18:16 AM »

Powder cans are designed not to explode . They open and vent . They will feed a fire but the cans do not explode . I have tried . Armorer77

Artilleryman · « **Reply #3 on:** July 01, 2012, 04:00:53 AM »

I know you don't want to, but burying is probably the best idea. If you have an ice chest that you could pre-bury with the lid several inches below ground so that all you would have to do is put the powder in and shovel dirt over it. I would find a rock or metal stake to mark the spot. Hope that all this is not needed and that you and yours will be safe.

BoomLover · « **Reply #4 on:** July 01, 2012, 05:50:16 AM »

Artilleryman is right, in your case, that is really the best solution. Prayers that the fire doesn't reach you!

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #5 on:** July 01, 2012, 05:57:04 AM »

Blaster, Sounds like you'll be doing a little digging. Hopefully you have some sandy soil somewhere on your acreage. Anyway, about 35 years ago when I was an apartment dweller, I had no responsible place to put 25 Lbs. of BP bought in a real good deal with a friend, so I lined it up in a 20mm ammo can I had and buried it on private land after first putting three 33 gallon trash bags over the can and lots of heavy duty ribber bands to keep the bags close to the can's surfaces. Placed in the hole and covered with about 10 or 12 inches of dirt, that powder was perfect when we dug it up 15 or 16 years later. These can's are the best of the best and have a rubber seal all around the cover where it clamps down on the can's edge.

Thanks for being responsible and thinking about those firefighters; we see them at work every day.

Tracy

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #6 on:** July 01, 2012, 06:45:22 AM »

Blaster, if worse comes to worse, give it away to someone that can use it.

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #7 on:** July 01, 2012, 06:48:46 AM »

A strong second vote for the 20mm ammo cans... They also about perfectly hold the two 25# bags that make up a 50# box of bulk Fa powder (or two bags of Fg from two bulk boxes of that).

A more robust solution...
In 1970 when the Omnibus Crime Control Act shut us down to 5# buy/possess limits, I purchased and covered with a few layers of autobody undercoating a 16 guage 55 gallon drum with a removable head, sealing ring/gasket, and cam-type locking ring. We mounted it in a hillside by burying it and then poured a concrete collar around the top into which we mounted a steel round with a skirt welded around it. It was mounted with two hinge plates at the rear and two enclosed lock boxes at the front (the locks protected so they cannot be shot at or into). After lining the inside with wood ("non-sparking material"), we invited the ATF to come inspect our "magazine". Very unorthodox but we passed and obtained the permits necessary to continue buying 50# boxes of black. Right after that Paul Barnett and the Indiana Sportsmans Council had their federal senator introduce Senate Bill 1096 which passed unaminously and we no longer required the magazine to keep shooting. What a great "day box" for storing powder in though. It did require 75 feet of clear area from people, animals or inhabitable buildings in order to pass that inspection... but maybe less if you don't have to pass that...

A little more pricey solution than just the ammo can and probably recommended where rainfall is high...
With a little shopping, you can buy a lockable tool box for tossing in the back of a pick-up truck that will just hold the 20mm ammo can , bury the aluminum tool box, put the ammo can in it with powder inside, close and lock the tool box, put a layer of plastic over it (a layer of foam with the plastic will keep its temperature more "earth-stable"), and then cover it with a few inches of sifted dirt. Again mark your location so you can reliably know where to dig.

Good luck and be safe!

GOW/George

onegreatshot · « **Reply #8 on:** July 01, 2012, 08:50:47 AM »

Bury it in the ground

lthardman · « **Reply #9 on:** July 01, 2012, 09:58:23 AM »

I agree with those who said to bury it. Put a sign up to warn others, metal should work. For what its worth, I have been a firefighter for 20+ years.

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #10 on:** July 01, 2012, 10:43:49 AM »

Here is a real nice size drum suitable for UG storage (maybe with a bit of automotive undercoating). The one I refer to is their 20 gallon yellow guy with the removable head. Again, it also makes a suitable overcovering container for ammo boxes. I recently bought a couple of them along with some/four 55 gallon size and I like them very much. Zoro's prices were less than I could get them from at WW Graingers and my order was large enough to qualify for free shipping:

http://www.zorotools.com/g/Unrated%20Transport%20Drums/00061369/

GOW

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** July 01, 2012, 03:42:07 PM »

Blaster Bob what ever you do with that powder do not bury in the ground in anyntainer in the possible path of a fire. If you have any understanding how black powder works you will know that is the most hazardous way there is to store powder in the potential path of a fire.

Remember the more black powder is confined, the more energetic it acts.

Burying it underground in a metal container creates a mine---in current speak, an IED

Give me an hour or two, to put the video together that I shot this forenoon and I will show you.

Double D · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2012, 04:54:30 PM »

As promised here is the video.

GGaskill · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2012, 05:30:39 PM »

How about another experiment--bury a can a foot underground, tamp the covering, then build a camp fire on top of it that will burn for half an hour and see if it goes off. If you're really in the experimenting mood, bury several cans at different depths and build fires over each. Maybe we can establish the minimum depth for effectiveness.

We really are wondering if the burying will prevent it from going off.

While I kinda understand not wanting to take it along in the car, 15 pounds is not all that much in terms of volume, it's not going to go off unless your car catches on fire, and it wouldn't be around your property to cause problems for fire fighters. Since you are not a common carrier, I don't think it would have to be marked Explosives or ORM-D or anything else that gives a hint at what it is. Find a detergent box or cereal box (case size box) and pack it in that.

If you have a utility trailer, put it in the trailer along with a bunch of other stuff. That would be even less likely to catch on fire.

Victor3 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2012, 08:20:00 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on July 01, 2012, 03:16:09 AM

15 pounds in an enclosed could be...well like you said you want to keep people safe. Do you have room in a refrigerator or freezer to put it if you have to leave?? if not maybe an oven?? Other than that no suggestions. Best wishes.

I don't know that this would be a good idea. House fires burn hot enough to destroy appliances, and firefighters will be trying to save homes. 10# of BP going up would be an unpleasant surprise that would probably cause them to abandon the home.

If it were me, I might be preparing to flush it down the toilet if I couldn't bury it safely. I think saving $200 worth of powder would be the least of my concerns about now.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #15 on:** July 02, 2012, 12:42:45 AM »

I think that there would have to be a very large bonfire sitting on top of powder buried a foot underground to set it off. Buried in an open area there would not be enough fuel to create that kind of heat. I suppose that someone could build a large fire let it burn down most of the way, shovel off the coals and take temperature readings at various depths to see if there is enough heat to set off powder.

Double D · « **Reply #16 on:** July 02, 2012, 03:21:33 AM »

Obviously you guys have very little experience with wild fires. The fire is incredibly hot and moves with the speed of the wind. The temperatures are so high that trees and houses don't catch on fire and start burning, they explode in fire. It is nothing for the super heated gases raising above fire to be laid down by the wind ahead and engulf and area that instantly explodes in fire for acres and acres. It is nothing to see the fire reach the slope of a mountain and in almost instantly the fire is at the top of the ridge, covering thousands of feet in mere seconds.

The ground is also super heated. As former Deputy Sheriff I have been been into these area immediately after the fire and it is incredible how hot the ground is and has got. You can not stand to walk the ground for long, especially rock soils. I do not know if the ground gets hot enough to ignite the powder under ground. I does get hot enough to melt plastic underground storage tubes. I would not want to chance powder.

A house on fire in one of these fires is a very low priority. Beyond life saving. fire fighters while not have time to stand a fight a house fire in a wild fire situation. The fire will either surround them or burn hundreds of yard or even miles away and many other home while they fight one house fire.

I have experience these fire in the hills of South Oregon and the prairie fires of Montana and the thing that has always scared me about these fires is how hot they get and how fast they move.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #17 on:** July 02, 2012, 04:01:39 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on July 01, 2012, 08:20:00 PM

If it were me, I might be preparing to flush it down the toilet if I couldn't bury it safely. I think saving $200 worth of powder would be the least of my concerns about now.

If I ever found myself in a situation where my home was in actual jeopardy from a raging wildfire, the wife and I would be hunkered down making a list of the things that we both considered irreplaceable and transportabe on quick notice (black powder would not make that list).

Blaster · « **Reply #18 on:** July 02, 2012, 05:52:37 AM »

We do have a four door pick up almost totally loaded with stuff that we figure we really will need to keep such as house documents, insurance papers, old photos, canned food, water, sleeping bags, tent, and many many other items that could be pretty necessary if we are really told to evacuate. Oops, forgot to pack a few rolls of toilet paper and my travel kit with tooth brush, razor, deodorent and RX's. Each gun is packed in soft cases and put back into the safe so will be able to quickly get them into the truck. We did have a wildfire just about 12 miles from us over the weekend but with a lot of great fire fighters, it is now contained.
Thank God for those guys and girls who worked so hard in such hot (over 100 degrees and humidity about 6 to 8 %) weather. Small, more valuable type things will be placed in the bank safe deposit box today. We also have two of the "Fire Fence" foam sprayers to douse the house and that would be the last thing we'd do on our way out. We pray to God that there will be some nice rain WITHOUT that blasted lightning. Many thanks for all the suggestions and if we do have to vacate this Summer, I'll certainly make a post about the adventure.

Blaster · « **Reply #19 on:** July 02, 2012, 06:00:41 AM »

Douglas, many many thanks for all the efforts in making a very good point about BP. Also a very big thanks for burning up all that powder in making that video. You have proven your point for me. I now believe that the most practical way to handle my BP supply is to either take it into town and have a friend hold it for me or merely take the supply along with us IF we are forced to evacuate. It is all held in a large fiberglass container so it should be OK that way too.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 02, 2012, 08:00:48 AM »

Blaster,
I don't have anything to add to this but my prayers for you and your's may the fires stay away from your property so you don't have to evacuate .......

Allen <><

Double D · « **Reply #21 on:** July 02, 2012, 08:02:53 AM »

Quote from: Blaster on July 02, 2012, 06:00:41 AM

I now believe that the most practical way to handle my BP supply is to either take it into town and have a friend hold it for me

Probably a better/best thing to do---ahead of time.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #22 on:** July 02, 2012, 02:52:53 PM »

I understand the intensity of feelings with fire nearby - I've friends in Colorado Springs - where the fire for many days was on 3 sides within a few thousand yards - hopefully abating now.

I have several tubes (used in the artillary for powder charges for 155 and 8"). They are waterproof. I also have a post-hole digger (the kind that is a hand-turned auger). Doing the obvious would take some time. Never really considered it seriously.