Author Topic: Muzzle velocity cap vs flint (Read 1203 times)

Will Bison · « **on:** February 19, 2004, 09:27:12 AM »

Assuming identical rifles, which will have the higher MV, a cap lock or a flint lock?

I argued with some other shooters that the difference would be minimal. They argued that the difference would be on the order of 20-30 percent in favor of the cap lock.

My argument was that once the main charge is ignited that a small amount of gas escapes from the nipple or the vent and that it all comes out about equal in either system.

Any comments from you folks.

Ramrod · « **Reply #1 on:** February 19, 2004, 10:43:06 AM »

20 or 30 feet per second might be beliveable, but 20 or 30 PERCENT? I doubt it, unless the flinter had maybe a 1/2 inch vent.

Bob/FLA · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2004, 01:35:43 PM »

Virtually no difference between percussion and flintlick ignition. Remember, that's just the ignition source, everything else is the same.

When you're shooting a round ball the size of mine, even 100 fps doesn't make any difference. It's not the speed that kills, it's the unbeleavable trauma delivered by a 3/4" ball traveling through a body.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

WD45 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2004, 02:37:03 AM »

I agree with Bob. They may be able to argue over lock time or reliable ignition and would still be on shakey ground. The difference in velocity is minimal and would make no difference on the recieving end.
If you come up with a chrony I bet none of them boys would put their money where their mouth is :wink:

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2004, 03:49:35 AM »

As we are hypothisizing about this, although I think any difference would be between particular rifles, there may be a slight and insignificant difference due to the partial blockage of the ignition channel by the cap and hammer.

As the others have suggested, I don't believe there would be any practical difference that could not be attributed to other factors involved with the charge, loading technique or any number of other factors. But a point for idle pondering.

Roger_Dailey · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2004, 11:35:18 AM »

Quote from: Will Bison

Assuming identical rifles, which will have the higher MV, a cap lock or a flint lock?

With identical loads, the cap gun should be higher. Neither one is "gas tight", but the touchhole in flinters is usually quite a bit larger than the fire channel in nipples.

How much difference? Probably not enough to worry about. I believe there would be more difference at lower charge levels.

Bluelk on the old Realtree forums may have done a near side by side compare. I remember it because I was starting into the flint world and had some concern about the amount of difference he reported. I'll see if I can find the info.

flintlock · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2004, 04:39:32 AM »

Muzzleblast had a story about this very topic several years ago...
it was only about 5-10 fps if I remember correctly...I tried to look
up this topic on their site...couldn't do it...If you have a chunk of
money bet...I'll try and find....flintlock

Roger_Dailey · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2004, 06:31:03 AM »

Quote from: Roger_Dailey

Quote from: Will Bison
Assuming identical rifles, which will have the higher MV, a cap lock or a flint lock?

Bluelk on the old Realtree forums may have done a near side by side compare. I remember it because I was starting into the flint world and had some concern about the amount of difference he reported. I'll see if I can find the info.

I could not find Bluelk's orginal posting. It may have been been lost when the transfer from the old to new forums. However, I had saved his data in a spread sheet. His first tests showed a very wide spread between perc. and flint. He questioned his results and re-ran the flint tests. I do not have the details of rifles, ambient conditions, test process and all that stuff. However, I know Bluelk was verydiligent in his experiments. He's the data I had saved:
WT.   PERC   FLNT   DIF   POWDER
090   1683   1612   71   GOEX 2F
100   1708   1767   -59
110   1857   1761   96

090   1718   1681   37   GOEX 3F
100   1820   1802   18
110   1889   1874   15

090   1678   1533   145   Clearshot 2F
100   1716   1690   26
110   1813   1711   102

090   1713   1499   214   Clearshot 3F
100   1818   1586   232
110   1879   1723   156

090   1442   1188   254   Pyrodex RS
100   1506   1217   289
110   1617   1303   314

090   1283   1004   279   Pryodex P
100   1376   1201   175
110   1392   1317   75

090   1421   1017   404   Pyrodex Pellets
100   1496   1317   179
110   1482   1402   80

rollingb · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2004, 07:01:13 AM »

Roger,.... Those figgers speak well, for the Goex FFFG, doesn't it!!

Bob/FLA · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2004, 08:12:58 AM »

Personally, I would not put too much stock into those numbers. I have yet to hear of a flinter that reliably lights pyrodex pellets.

Quite frankly, when I do test load comparisons, I use the same bbl and cool between shots to reduce the variables. Since the only way to reduce variables in muzzleloading would be to replace the percussion drum and lock with a flintlock and touchhole. Since there were only a few models that you could do that, I doubt a serious comparison was done.

That said, does 30fps mean anything? I'll never notice the difference.
:roll:

rollingb · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2004, 09:17:04 AM »

If all you fellas want to "chip in" and buy me anuther lock for my "Early Hawken" fullstock,.... I'll do tha "TEST'N"!!

Roger_Dailey · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2004, 10:43:12 AM »

Quote from: Bob/FLA

I have yet to hear of a flinter that reliably lights pyrodex pellets.

Quite frankly, I believe the numbers support that statement. With the easier to light black powder, there was not much difference. The tests with the harder to light propellents showed a wider spread. The difference between cap and flint due to flash hole vs. nipple may be very little. The difference may be due to ignition.

One way of testing would be to use a perc. gun to develop a base line. Then drill a vent hole (simulating the touch hole in a flinter) and re-run the tests. That way the same ignition would be used and the only difference would be the venting of gas.

YMMV

KING · « **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2004, 04:18:46 PM »

For what it is worth guys I have put my flinters and caplocks through my Chrony and found the differance to be generally no more that 20 fps for any given load. Now I did not do a study of this,but I do have several rifles that are twins.one being a flint...the other a cap......might do to see what I can come up with........stay safe..King :roll:

Bob/FLA · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2004, 05:28:47 AM »

I'm with you Roger...

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2004, 06:07:25 AM »

To proprerly test this one needs a convertable rifle, so that the gun itself actually remains the same!

BTW you'd be AMAZED at how much power there is coming outta that little hole!!!!!

rollingb · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2004, 08:15:01 AM »

Like I mentioned above,..... if you fellers will "chip in" and buy me anuther lock,.... I can use the same "Early Hawken" riflegun to do the test'n!!

I already have a "chrony",.... so ther is no need to buy me one'a them to!!

Bob/FLA · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2004, 10:49:38 AM »

:shock:

clodbuster · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2004, 02:20:18 PM »

rollingball Kinda off on a tangent but I'd wager there would be some hellish pressure readings from that 110 gr loading of fff. If you were to test this program please do it by remote control with a gun you don't have any strong attachment to.

rollingb · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2004, 03:34:23 PM »

Clodbuster,.... Yore right 'bout the 110grs. of FFFG!!

I figgered on keep'n the powder charges "reasonable" for a .58 cal. 1" Green Mountain barrel!!

The Cast Bullet Kid · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2004, 04:47:06 PM »

I have a pair of .40cals that both wear Colerain barrels.
The percussion will CONSISTANTLY produce velocities 10% greater than the flinter.
For example: 50 gr of 3Fg in the Flinter - 1850fps
50gr of 3Fg in the cap gun - 2050fps
Same at the bottom end.
Same barrels, lube, patches, balls, cleaning, barrel length.