.358 level loads in .356 brass in a Handi

[petemi]

I was experimenting at the bench the other day and measured out 49.0 gr. IMR3031 per Richard Lee and dumped it in a .356 case.  It is a compressed load and filled the case to the brim.  I did the same with a .358 case and the results were identical.  I could see no difference in case capacity.  With the 200 gr. bullet this load produces 51800 CUP in the .358, well within the Handi's capacity.  I also don't believe there is any difference in case strength between the .356 and the .358.  I do believe the only reason the .356 is loaded lighter than the .358 is the strength of the rifles Winchester produced for these calibers.  Based on the above, I'm going to begin with .356 brass and 200 gr. bullets with the starting .358 load of  43.3 gr. IMR3031 and work up from there.  I'd like to prove that we can safely shoot .358 level loads in .356 brass in the Handi.

Pete
 

[revbc]

I don't have any written proof, but I think you're probably correct about the loading for the 356.  Lever gun actions are not generally as strong, with the exception of the BLR which has locking lugs on a rotating bolt head.

Love that 356    Mississippi and now Louisiana have the 35 cal as a primitive weapon (breech loading single shot).  A lot are head over heels with the 35 Whelen (which is an excellent cartridge) however; I think they're missing the best, of course!

[LaOtto222]

Pete - I do not want to start a war about rimmed cases, but I would think that the 356 would be a bit stronger in the head area than a 358 case. This would be due to the extra brass in the rim. The rim should help to keep the primer pockets from expanding. Of course if you keep the pressure down to decent levels you should not have a problem with expanded primer pockets with a rimless case either. Bottom line, I do think you can shoot 358 level loads in a 356 case without a problem.


Good Luck And Good Shooting

[quickdtoo]

They have the same max pressure standard of 52kcup, AG lists water weight capacity for the 358 as 57.3gr, 356 is 57.4gr. 

Tim

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

[muznut 54]

I have a BLR 358win and you don't have to load it to the max for good performance with one of the top performing powders for that caliber, I Use 47 to 48.5gr of IMR4320 with a Hornady 200gr sp for most of my stuff and it kills anything I shoot at.

[Hunter6657]

Winchester Big Bore rifles are plenty strong.
The difference in capacities of the 2 is because the 356 is loaded to a shorter overall length to be able to cycle through the action of the lever actions which will accomodate a 2.55 overall length. the bullet sits deeper in the case reducing case capacity and raising pressures for deeper seated bullets.
Check out the overall length differences between the 358 and 356. I do believe bolt action rifles are stronger than the lever actions. Also check out Paco Kelley's loads for the Big Bore.
He hasn't managed to blow himself up yet with his hot loads.
There is this same difference between the 307 winchester and 308 winchester.

[BAGTIC]

I have never seen a case that failed at the extractor groove. They will always fail forward of the web.

[336SC]

I have never seen a case that failed at the extractor groove. They will always fail forward of the web.

Ken Water's wrote a Pet Loads article on the .300 Savage in Handloader Magazine many years ago in which he had a catastrophic failure of .300 Savage brass at the extraction groove.  The escaping gases ruined the fore end stock on his Savage Model 99.  Turns out the brass was defective.  It was once fired brass causing no problems when firing the factory loads, but when reloaded for the first time
it let go at the extraction groove.  It can and does happen.  I'm loading for 45 years now and I have seen soot smudges in the extraction groove twice on factory loads I have fired.
336SC

[44 Man]

Pete, I thinks you is on to sumtin.    You keep nudging me closer to the need to find a couple of .357 barrels and ream one of them to the .356.  Sigh, unfortunately this will have to come after a couple of other 'wish list' projects.  But I do LOVE those .35 cal rifles of ANY case type.  44 Man

[BAGTIC]

If a case failed at the extraction groove it was due to a manufacturing defect not to a design defect. Rimmed cases have also been known to fail immediately ahead of the rim. The rim is not going to prevent the primer pocket from expanding. By the time pressure gets high enough to expand the primer pocket it is high enough to compress/swage the brass in the immediate vicinity of the pocket. BTW rimmed cases also get expanded primer pockets.

[LaOtto222]

I do not dispute that rimmed cases can get expanded primer pockets. I personally have never owned a high pressure rimmed case such as a 220 Swift, a 225 Winchester, 356 Winchester, but I would  think you can could generate enough pressure to expand a primer pocket. I have gotten sloppy primer pockets with 22 Hornets that were over loaded, so I know it is possible to have rimmed cases get loose primer pockets.


All cases can fail right above the web. This is due to the case stretching in this area until it fails. This usually happens after several re-loadings, but if there is enough head space and high enough pressure, they could fail on a first or second loading. Most of the case stretch happens in this area.


I would think if a case fails in the extraction groove, it would have to be a defect in the case. There is lots of brass in this area, even in a rimless case so it should fail some where else before failing in the groove. Look at a cross section of a case and you can see that there is a lot of brass in this area.


If a rimless case can take so much pressure, then a rimmed case of identical design will handle pressure in the head area just a little bit better, due to the extra ring of brass in the same plane of primer pocket expansion. It would be like putting a tight washer over the end of a pipe. It will handle more pressure here with the washer than with out it, just how much more? How much, I do not know, but it will take a little more, due to the extra mass/reenforcement in the same area.  It is sort of a moot point however because if the rimless case is so high of pressure it causes the primer pocket to expand, then you are asking for trouble even with a rimmed case. The bottom line - if the rimless case will handle 60K psi, then a rimmed case of identical design will surely handle it as well.


Good Luck and Good Shooting