Major Modification to the H&R Handy.

[Fred M]

In the process of writing this post I was counted out by NEF. I thought what in carnations is going on. Well that is now history.

I am referring to the pictures and the modification to install a new match grade Shilen barrel in 308 and chamber the same in 308 Win. A new match grade Shilem is $265 including shipping from Ron Hoehn. That is a better price than from Shilen. I estimate the gunsmithing at 275 min. The smith would have to build a special barrel vise to hold the stub.

Notwithstanding all this work and a top of line barrel, the Handy will not shoot very much better than the factory barrel. Be cause there is nothing the smith can do to remove the inherent and required tolerances of the Handy's under-lug lock up system. The action can never be as solid as a bolt action.

When the rifle is fired the bullet will set up a vibration, negative to the hinge pin and positive from the hinge pin to the end of the muzzle.
The quality of the barrel has no influence on that.

Besides the smith is in big trouble if anything is happening to the rifle.
I am sure he would not include the free bore as the factory does. The free bore as we discussed before reduces the initial pressure spike.
So his 308 will operate at full SAMMI pressure, which is in excess of the Handies design pressure.

A modification like the 357 Maximum is no trouble, or a 223 to 223 AI with a smaller cartridge face. In my opinion any modification to remove the free bore from the Handies in the high intensities cartridges like the 30-06 270 280 25-06 22-250 should be avoided. Besides any of these cartridges are more than enough accurate and potent to do their required job, with a little tweaking..

This will be my last post; I will be away in two days for two month. I hope that by then this new NEF site has replicated it self.

[Fred M]

Mac.
There is no scientific proof that an AI case will have less back thrust.
What is perceived is a mechanical illusion. A straight wall chamber will allow a positive spring back of the brass, while a tapered chamber will prevent the case to spring back under higher pressures. Pressure is equal in all direction. But with a pressure that would lock up a tapered chamber the AI chamber will still open, but not because of lesser back thrust.

You have seen flattened primers, bolt imprints on the case heads. Locked up bolts etc. I have shot nothing but AI's for a long time and the bottom line is, when you exceed the elastic limit of the brass all sort of things happens. If there were less back thrust on AI cases you would see or feel no indications of high pressure.

It is easy to overload an AI case because sticky bolts and the like are delayed until the brass is nearly stretched to the limit.

Dial in "Varmint Al" he has some nice pressure diagrams. NEF chambers were designed with factory loads in mind, which were higher than what their safety margins allowed, hence the free bore.

Anybody can do with his or her Handies what they like, but I am sure the action will stretch in short order if the rifles are fired with standard chambers and high pressure loads.

Winchester made an O/U 30-06 on their 101 actions, which has a pretty solid lock up, but these had a habit of shooting loose with full loads. A Handy rifle is not near as substantial as a 101. The lock up on the marlin leaver action is nearly as strong as a bolt action. But high-pressure loads can stretch the frame.

[Wlscott]

I am seriously considering rechambering my Ultra to .223 AI so I am reading everything you guys say very intently.  

As long as the pressures don't exceed the original cartridge or the rifle's limits,there shouldn't be any problem with doing the conversion.

One question......How can you stay within the pressure limits of the original chambering if you are increasing the amount of powder in the case?

DISCLAIMER:  I have shot all my life, but have not done much on the 'smithing side of things, so any questions I ask may or may not be stupid ones :lol:

Second question.....I have case dimensions for .223 REM, but would like to compare dimensions to a .223AI.  Do you know where I can find drawings of the improved version?  I've looked but had no luck.

Thanks,
Wes

[handirifle]

wlscott
Try www.reloadbench.com

They have a list of cartridge drawings there like no other site I have found.  Virtually all the standard and a vast number of wildcat or "improved" ones as well.

[Wlscott]

Thanks Handi Rifle, but that's the first place I looked.  No AI version of the .223.

[Fred M]

Mac.
No I did not ask NEF Arms about the free bore. But they put it in for the reduction of pressure. Otherwise why not ream a standard chamber? What is happening when you can't jam the bullet into the lands? Simple, it leaves room for initial expansion; end result is free bore left as designed, only put into different words.

The free bore was not put in without purpose, also their explanation to you sounds silly also it is true enough and it has the same effect. Removing the freebore from a Handy is in my opinion not a good idea.
Unless like you say you are a handloader that knows what he is doing.

But when you load the Handy down to sensible pressures in a standard chamber you right back as if you had free bore.

Judicious hand loading has never been a question. I have for years used maximum standard loads in Wildcats where applicable. Of course some of them you have to load from scratch.

A case like a 223AI provides very little extra powder room, but the benefits are very long case life with only neck sizing when loaded to max standard loads and perhaps in the Handy no sticky cases?
With the abundance of 2223 cases and their price I don't see much point in the conversion?? But they are nice.

This is it for the next two month. Talk to you again when I get back and don't take things to serious, just play it cool and keep your powder dry. :-)

[Winter Hawk]

Are you sure about long freebore being designed in?  From various discussions I have seen over the years, the freebore varies wildly from gun to gun.  Some folks can't seat any bullet out far enough to touch the lands while others with the same caliber complain that they can't load long bullets without seating them deep in the case.  I came to the conclusion that QC is somewhat lacking at NEF, though for a cheap gun that may be what to expect.

-WH-

[Mac11700]

I am seriously considering rechambering my Ultra to .223 AI so I am reading everything you guys say very intently.  

As long as the pressures don't exceed the original cartridge or the rifle's limits,there shouldn't be any problem with doing the conversion.

One question......How can you stay within the pressure limits of the original chambering if you are increasing the amount of powder in the case?

DISCLAIMER:  I have shot all my life, but have not done much on the 'smithing side of things, so any questions I ask may or may not be stupid ones :lol:

Second question.....I have case dimensions for .223 REM, but would like to compare dimensions to a .223AI.  Do you know where I can find drawings of the improved version?  I've looked but had no luck.

Thanks,
Wes

One question......How can you stay within the pressure limits of the original chambering if you are increasing the amount of powder in the case?

No-one says you have to increase the amount of powder in the case now do they? :wink:


This is my whole point of contetion for my rechambering.I'm not expecting to gain a great deal of velocity and I'm not planning to try to reload to get it over the standard 30-06 velocities,that's not my intentions for doing this rechambering in the first place,what I do want,is the chance at improved accuracy and the ability to choose my own seating depth for the various bullets.,I'm wanting to utilize....Believe me...I do know the limitations of these rifles,and you really don't want to go overloading them,by a whole bunch.Heck...I don't like overloading any rifle for that matter..The benifits of the increased performance from the Ackley Improved cartridges are gennerally  for a  BOLT ACTION RIFLE....not our handi's.However the main advantages for us is improved case life,and a chance to clean up an otherwise sloppy chamber,or long throat.By given us a longer case life,what does that really mean except the brass isn't flowing as much as it would in an otherwise normal factory round.This includes backwards as well.If the brass isn't having as much rearward movement,isn't that reducing backthrust? With the backthrust reduced,we won't have as great of chance stretching the frames of our rifles.

Now ..good ole Fred feels that the free bore that NEf has so gratiously given us,for only a select few rifles(since not all the good Handi owners have this malidy)is a  built in saftey for the pressure,well I have spoken with  H&R and I can tell you what they told me,and how they told me doesn't coinside with Fred's viewpoint.As long as the bullet is allowed some free bore say .010" this will allow the standard pressures to be alright.Jamm a bullet up into the lands hard and drop a max charge of powder into the case and it's a very dangerous situation.H&R told me this...not someone else.

We cannot turn our little Handi rifles into something they aren't...a bolt action.This is not ,nor has it ever been  at anytime my intintions of doing so.I am rechambering to correct a problem with mine,one that H&R won't do anything about.I know the limitations of MY rifle,and I understand the safe-gaurds I must do to keep me and it safe.

Please....before doing anywork on your Handi...talk to a compitent gunsmith,one familiar with the Ackley Improved cartridges and get their take on it.Then call a few more and see if they concure with the first one.Talk with as many gunsmiths as you can,prior to doing any work.

Here's all I have on the 223AI taken from the 10th Edition of Cartridges of the World..by Frank Barnes.

I hope that helps

case dimensions for the 223 Ackley Improved

bullet dia.  .224
neck dia.   .250
shoulder dia.  .365
base dia.    .375
rim dia.      .378
rim thickness   .041
case lenght   1.760"
ctge. lenght  varies
twist used     7-12
primers used   small



Mac

[Wlscott]

Mac, you said,

No-one says you have to increase the amount of powder in the case now do they?  


This is my whole point of contetion for my rechambering.I'm not expecting to gain a great deal of velocity and I'm not planning to try to reload to get it over the standard 30-06 velocities,that's not my intentions for doing this rechambering in the first place,what I do want,is the chance at improved accuracy and the ability to choose my own seating depth for the various bullets

I understand what you're saying.....You're wanting to get better accuracy out of your 30-06 by being able to seat the bullet closer to the lands.  But, a general rule of thumb that I have always gone by is that the higher the load density is, the more accurate your particular load will be.  If you increase case capacity by doing the rechamber to the improved version, then load down to close to the original '06 velocities, won't you be decreasing load density, thereby decreasing the potential for accuracy of the load?  

Unlike yourself, I am interested in this modification to gain velocity without loosing accuracy, at the same time, I don't want to do something unsafe or unsmart.  

Please....before doing anywork on your Handi...talk to a compitent gunsmith,one familiar with the Ackley Improved cartridges and get their take on it.Then call a few more and see if they concure with the first one.Talk with as many gunsmiths as you can,prior to doing any work.

I agree, but I'm still asking here also because there is a wealth of information here.

[Mac11700]

In all of my reloading I have found that there is a paticular velocity for any given bullet,in one paticular rifle,that will give the best accuracy.It may or not be a 100% it may only be at 93% or less,or 97%...ect,ect.

Each rifle is has it's own quirks,it may or may not shoot a paticular bullet well,due to variable reason.The harmaonics may not be right and it can throw it off enough to open the groups up.Tons of people will say that your only opening groups up 1-1 1/2" at 100yards and groups of that size are perfectly acceptable...perhaps for someone only interested in attaining those size groups they are ok,but I'm not interested in achieving hunting accuracy...I want to see just how accurate I can make it.

I had a old H&R Topper in 30-30,, 20 years ago.I was told then that I shouldn't expect to get any better than 1-2 inch groups with it...I didn't buy that then...I still don't buy it today. I could load it up past max and attain 2750 fps with a 125 grain Sierra SP and get 1-2 inch groups,but my best groups came in in that rifle,and that bullet at a hair over 2600fps.

My 270 Winchester Western,and Classic are again a good example...I could load up my Western to 3250 with the 130 grains but my Classic only liked them at 3125...both would shoot MOA with them,with no problem,but they really shined at the mentioned velocities.


Like I said..each rifle is individulistic..it has it's on sweet spot.Some powders give you higher loading densities,velocities,and pressure,but don't always give you the best accuracy.This is what reloading is all about... for me...experimentation...finding what works and what doesn't..while doing it as safely as you can.

When I have my rifle rechambered,I hope it will give me good accuracy across the board with all different kinds of combinations,including some factory 30-06 rounds.That way even in a pinch I know I can still get by if I have to!

Mac

[Wlscott]

This is what reloading is all about... for me...experimentation...finding what works and what doesn't..while doing it as safely as you can.

That's what it all boils down too brother......Experimentation.



I can give you all the reasons in the world for wanting to do this rechamber......Increased velocity, accuracy etc.  But it all boils down to the fact that I just can't leave well enough alone.  I'd just like to be well informed before I really decide to do it.