Author Topic: .45 saves innocent lives  (Read 1746 times)

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Online ironglow

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.45 saves innocent lives
« on: March 31, 2004, 03:28:19 AM »
Will someone who is handier with their PC, please post this story on this forum for me?
  It tells a harrowing story how a husband and father saved not only his own life but probably several others, with a .45 auto.
  You will probably not see this story in the NY or La times..not even in the Chicago Trib.
   
  To access story, go to   www.worldnetdaily.com    then scroll down to the heading   ...An invader's hateful stare....click on the line to get the story...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Mikey

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Hateful Stare
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2004, 09:35:23 AM »
ironglow - let's see if this works...

WND BOOKS EXCERPT, Part 2
An invader's 'hateful stare'
'Illegals' tells harrowing story of man protecting property from aliens

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: March 31, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

Editor's note: In "Illegals: The Imminent Threat Posed by Our Unsecured U.S.-Mexico Border," veteran journalist Jon E. Dougherty documents a truth that both major political parties have missed – namely, that sustained high immigration levels from south of the border will continue to pose economic, labor, security and criminal threats to the United States, unless American and Mexican leaders find ways to limit it.
This is the second of four excerpts featured on WorldNetDaily from "Illegals," a recent release of WND Books. Today's excerpt tells the harrowing story of one American living near the border who engaged in an armed stare down with a gang of illegal aliens.

By Jon E. Dougherty
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

Before he moved his family to Whetstone, Ariz., a small community 20 minutes from the Mexican border, John F. Petrello III admits he never believed the stories about an "invasion" of illegal aliens. Like most Americans – especially those who don't live near the vast southwest border, which spans Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and southern California – John thought yarns about "the occupying hordes" were just concoctions of radical anti-immigration extremists, people who were so absorbed with nationalistic hatred and bigotry they were incapable of embracing other ethnic groups, even if they immigrated legally to America.

But within months of relocating John was not only transformed into a believer, he became a full-blown convert. And, like most of his neighbors, his concern about continued mass illegal immigration and the threats it poses to the nation, if not just his own corner of the world, came about in a personal and harrowing way.

One morning as John's wife, Heather – pregnant with their second child, a son – was outside watching the couple's young daughter play on their four-acre property, she witnessed the driver of a pickup truck speed up to an adjacent property and quickly drop off 12 men, then disappear just as quickly as it had appeared. John and Heather had been living in the area long enough to know the men who had been dropped off were likely illegal aliens; in the past illegals had been dropped off without incident, but it still unnerved Heather to see them dropped off so closely this time. She began calling for John, who was working in the yard out of her view and out of the view of the band of illegals.

Upon hearing the urgency in her voice, John went for his .45-caliber sidearm just inside the house (he said he usually carries it all the time for protection, but leaves it inside if he's outside working and believes there may be a chance of knocking it around and having it accidentally discharge). After retrieving it, he immediately went back outside to find Heather, who had already grabbed up their daughter, yelling at him that a coyote – as immigrant smugglers are called – had just dropped off a group of men.

"The coyote could have picked them up from any number of several locations nearby," John said.

But rather than move off in the opposite direction, the 12 men began moving toward the Petrello's small property, which, John realized, had been what caused his wife so much anxiety.

John instructed Heather to take their daughter to a neighbor's house, lock the doors and call "someone to come here and help me out." By that time he could see the aliens moving in nearby mesquite trees "about a hundred yards away." He said he yelled at them, "Alto! Alto! [Stop! Stop!]" and indicated they shouldn't come closer. He said he knew they had seen and heard him because a few members of the group had made eye contact. But they didn't stop coming toward him, and within a few moments the group breached the perimeter of his property.

As they approached, John says they could see he was armed. "I had one hand up waving them off and the other on my weapon," which was in plain view on his hip, he said. Still, they continued to advance toward him until finally, he says, he began to fear for his own safety.

Finally, in desperation he says, "I drew my weapon and laid down several rounds directly in front of the lead man's feet. It was close enough that dirt was hitting him." But the men kept advancing and it was at that point, he admits, that "I thought I may have gotten in over my head."

For one thing, John realized he had only one magazine in his pistol, and that he had just used over half the bullets in an attempt to scare the aliens away. For another, he says, he wasn't accustomed to seeing or hearing groups of illegals that were so brazen; in the past, when confronted by armed Americans, most either ran away or quickly surrendered (though since John Petrello's incident, locals say illegals aren't as intimidated or afraid as they used to be).

"I don't care who you are or what you've been through, you know that if you're shooting at someone and they keep advancing on you, those are some serious people," said John, who had become accustomed by then to seeing and detaining illegal immigrants on his property. When they didn't respond to warning shots, he said he began to believe at least a couple of the illegals may have been armed, a phenomenon that has also been on the rise in recent years.

In a final bid to scare the intruders away, John fired a few more precious rounds at the feet of the advancing aliens to show them he was as serious as they. With that, he said, the pack of men finally stopped in their tracks; they didn't run away, but instead began to stare John down. The man in the lead locked eyes with John in a "hateful stare," causing him to level his pistol with few remaining rounds "right at his head." The lead illegal alien was less than ten yards away.

"He was pretty damned close," John said, "but when he saw that big .45 barrel looking at him, he finally figured out I wasn't kidding."

Scared but thankful the advance stopped, John continued to keep his pistol aimed at the man. For several tense seconds, both he and the illegal kept eyes locked, staring hard at each other, watching and waiting to see if the other would make a move, show signs of fear, or signal he would give up. In the end, it was the lead alien who blinked first; John says he and the other men in the small group began quietly talking among themselves in Spanish – too low for him to make out words – before the lead man turned and began running in the other direction, the rest of his party in tow.

Order your copy of "Illegals: The Imminent Threat Posed by Our Unsecured U.S.-Mexico Border."

Tomorrow's excerpt delves into the taxpayer costs of services provided to illegal aliens.

Offline MGMorden

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2004, 10:43:33 AM »
A couple things don't add up about the semantics. A colt 1911-style handgun normally holds 7 or 8 rounds (I know the Ballester Molina 1911 copys I've been looking at hold 7, but I seem to remember a real 1911 holding 8).  Either way, if "over half" of the rounds were fired to start with as warning shots, that leaves at most 3 shots left.  If a few more (few being literally more than three, but we'll be lenient and just say multiple so more than 2) were then fired, that would leave at most 1 shot left.  The article then says though, that he had "a few" shots left.  

Either way though, this is a good example of why civilians do actually have a use for hi-cap mags.  This guy was shooting a .45 so he was about maxed out anyways, but it would suck for the same guy to have been standing there w/ a 9mm, and been capped at 10 rounds when his gun design could hold 17  :evil:.

Online ironglow

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2004, 01:27:09 PM »
Thanks Mikey;
    Shows the wisdom of our forefathers when they adopted the second ammendment!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Mikey

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ironglow
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2004, 03:17:56 AM »
thanks, and you know I agree.  Mikey.

Offline PA-Joe

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2004, 03:33:13 AM »
Scary, yes!

But maybe they just needed some water and food.

John may want to consider setting a water well out side so that they don't have to come on his property to ask for help. A sign pointing to the water and maybe some food or a local chuch shelter might also be appropriate.

A hugh pack of dogs would also be a good idea.

Offline TravisM.

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2004, 06:19:34 AM »
A water well? :evil:  :twisted:  :evil:  :twisted:
 By the sounds of things at that guys house, I think the last thing he would need would be something to draw more illegals there. If he would do something like that, it wouldn't be Whetstone, AZ, it would be called "Little Tiujana" in a matter of days.  

By my thinking, maybe a hole in the head of the lead guy would have deterred any more from coming around.

Im sorry, if they are so desperate for food and water, maybe they shouldn't be illegal immigrants trying to invade someones home. Maybe they should try to do things the right way by finding and keeping a job, and not trying to rob someone of what they have worked for all of their lives.
Dont take this the wrong way, I have nothing against legalized, hard working hispanics, african americans or any other nationality. These people aren't illegal immigrants, they are and should be considered downright criminals, and should be treated as such. They ruined things in their own country, now they want to migrate and ruin someone else's.

Of course, what do you expect? Any other country in the world would refuse to change their language for illegals, but here it is insisted that we do. I don't know who said it first, but it should be posted at all crossing points on every border: "Welcome to America! Learn to speak english!"

Offline litman252

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2004, 03:01:08 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pretty much what he said.
Tony :twisted:

Offline williamlayton

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2004, 02:02:07 AM »
Illegals/legals are not a problem too only those along the border. All cities in these states have more than an influx of such.
It is a delima, aint it. Conditions are very harsh in Mexico. That said, this situation has become more than a nuisance and is causing much of the same problem here. Well, a reread finds this thought lacking in coherence. These folks are causing the economy here to become much of what it is down there, for them. This is leading to much more crime in their community and therefore spilling over to ours.
Something needs to be done. It would be good if Mexico would change. they have a system which reminds me of the middle east, those that have and the rest don't.
I must admit to being a lot more concerned about my own safety as I run around this town and this has brought about my change, in the last few years, of mind in what I feel I need to carry for my own safety.
For years I was comfortable with a .38 or even my Walthers in .380. I have begun a systematic change to larger calibers for this reason. It would be good if I could carry higher capacity.
This has lead to trying to find a weapon which would allow a few more bullets such as the 9X23 without giving up any velocity/stopping power. The single stacked 10mm just doesn't do that although I am beginning to like this caliber.
Folks, I am beginning to understand/have empathy with those of old who faced much of the same pressures. Sam Colt helped them out. Our government should climb down from their isolation and help us out. It seems, to me, we need some relief.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Mikey

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Gov't help -
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2004, 03:44:35 AM »
williamlayton, I agree with yo that the gov't should help us armed citizens more, and one way they can do it is to reduce the number os laws, regulations and restrictions on gun ownership so that we don't ahve to worry about not having the means to protect ourselves when we need to.  

One of my mottos is:  No new laws, no new restrictions and no new limits.  Of course, that goes right along with my other mottos:  no new demicraps and no more demicraptic presidinks.  And there you have my two cents.  Mikey.

Offline williamlayton

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2004, 11:41:04 PM »
Mikey-
Your a fan of the 10mm I think. What kind do you favor?
Democrat/Republican-hummm--well, these two are not putting up anthing to brag about, as far as candidates are concerned, in my opinion. I think the leadership of these parties, whoever they may be, are stagnant and concerened about only thierown well being.
I'm in favor of a third voice, Gonna take tha folks in the poll booths some guts to get away from this republican/democrat thing. Shake things up, tear down this entrenchedment thing we got going. A revolution, the democratic way. Let the people start taking control again, vote in those who can think and will listen. OH well--who listens to reason anyway.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Mikey

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10mm fan
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2004, 03:31:14 AM »
williamlayton:  Yep, I'm a fan of the 10mm.  Developed my own 10mm cartridge back in the late 70s and then found out Cor-Bon had copied the design 17 years later (just past patent infringement dates) and change it just enough to get around copyright infringements and called it the 400 Cor-Bon (which turns out to be a pos).

I do like the 10mm cartridge and think it has lots of potential for handloaders.  The bottlenecked design I brewed up has great hunting potential and has proven itself on whitetail a number of times, and is also more accurate than I am.  

I prefer the 1911 platform but it requires heavier springs and some recoil buffers to handle the higher pressures of the bottlenecked design, as does the regular 10mm platform.

As to which kind I favor, if you mean pistol manufacturer, it would be anyone who produces a quality 1911 and from what I have recently seen of the newer Colt 1911s I may have to get off my anti-Colt soapbox and take another look.  

One thing I do want to assess is the straight walled 10mm cartridge and will need either a new slide and barrel to accomplish that or possibly put together a combination from an older 38 Super slide that had the bolt face opened up for the 38 special as an Army target gun - I think it would both fit and work.  

I think the 10mm has lots of applications, both for the field as well as personal carry, and as well for the target range.  I would just have to work at developing the right loads for each application, someday whenever I have the time, and all the money I would need to accomplish those tasks.  Someday.  Thanks for askin'.  Mikey.

Offline williamlayton

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2004, 12:31:36 PM »
Mikey
Got any opinion on the SVI in a 10mm. I have been looking at them in the 10 or MAYBE--hummm- a 9x23. been reading bout it an it sure is interesting. Always good to have something new round tha house an well, er cause of my age and tha Hen a 9x23 or 10mm would suffice.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Mikey

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SVI
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2004, 03:40:06 AM »
williamlayton:  the SVI is supposed to be a top quality piece but the choice of caliber should be yours.  I am a big fan of the 10mm, and I am also a fan of the 38 Super/9x23 but unless you reload, both are pretty high intensity rounds and even in a full sized 1911 platform can be fairly recoil heavy.  

If I were to purchase that pistol I would go for the 10mm, but that is just my preference - you can find some fairly mild loadings for that caliber that would make it easier to shoot but still give you more than you would need in a personal defense caliber.  If you prefer the 9mms (38 Super and 9x23), they should be easier shooting in a full sized platform but with whatever your choice, neither of the 3 usually requires a follow-up shot.

HTH buddy, let us know what you decide on.  Mikey.

Offline williamlayton

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2004, 09:26:02 AM »
Mikey-
Thanx a lot for the reply.
I will begin reloading pretty soon, all I haff to do is get off my duff and make some final decisions. The 9x23, reloading is what i'm talking bout, really does not concern me as much as the sig357 but I'm sure that will come to me. That said, Dane Burns over at pistolsmith, has words of caution bout reloading the 9x23. I'm thinking because of the relative lack of loading data for this devil.
The svi really has me impressed, from reading comments over there. It seems to be a well made, custom for that fact, but less than a pistolsmiths price for one of the same caliber of workmanship. Dane has advised against a ramped barrel beccause of feeding problems associated with them in a 1911 frame. It is a ramped barrel that is in the svi, however tha folks with this gun do not share the same concerns and it seems to work pretty flawlessly.
That said, I might still go with the 10mm. I sure do like the thought of both for stopping power. Wish I could afford one of each, Tha hen would kill me though.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline TravisM.

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2004, 04:42:45 PM »
Just weighing in again.... I feel that the illegal immigrants are effecting the entire country the whole way thru. Crime rates around border areas have risen, job loss to illegal workers.. the list goes on.

On the political front, I think its all figured out ahead of time, and we are allowed to vote because it lets us feel that our "Democratic Rights" aren't being infringed upon. I believe They know long before the election is even started who is going in or who is getting the boot. All politicians since teddy roosevelt have been as crooked as my dogs back legs, and none of them plan on doing a darn lick of good for anyone but themselves (unless, of course it will directly benefit themself) but theyll tell you they do until theyre blue in the face.

On the large caliber handgun issue, I'm a 45 acp fan myself. I have no more need than the 8 rounds wilson combat mags give me. However, If I were to switch to a smaller caliber, it would be either a .40 or a 9mm. I know they aren't as powerfull as the 10mm or the 9x23/38 super, but I don't reload, and I can count on one hand the number of boxes of 38 super ammo Ive ever seen, and can count the same for 10mm with two hands. The 10mm is a great cartridge; I believe a bit ahead of its time when created. A friends stepdad has a S&W 1006 (i believe... Im not a big smith fan, I get the numbers confused). Flatter shooting than the 45, way more power than the 9. all around, a great, underrated caliber.

Offline Mikey

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2004, 04:08:57 AM »
williamlayton:  I can understand your gunsmith's note of caution on the 9x23, as this cartridge case can fit into older firearms chambered for the older european 9x23 or 9mm Largo that are not as high pressure as the 9x23 Winchester round.  As for loading data, use the 38 Super data - my old Lyman 43rd and 45th editions give data for loads that take the 38 Super's 130 gn bullet to 1398'/sec, which comes out to the 1425'/sec in the 9x23 when you drop to the 125 gn bullet.  

On the issue of ramped barrels - I have never shot one and cannot personally comment on their reliability except to relate what I have read about shooters who use high pressure 38 Super and 9x23 loads in the various pistol sports and they favor the ramped barrels in their race guns for the continued use of high pressure loads to prevent case ruptures - their loads are higher in pressure I think than what you or I would load up for defensive or field work, and I have not heard of any lack of reliability problems with properly installed ramped barrels.

Now, all of that is on the 38 Super/9x23 Winchester.  As for the 10mm, you will get more bark and more bite from the 10mm surely, but you also get a heavier load.  The 38 Super/9x23 Winchester in a 1911 platform stuffed with heavier recoil springs (like 22 pounders from Wolff), just sits in your hand as the slide recoils back and forth.  Even with heavy springs, that 10mm with its heavier bullets will recoil more noticeably, but maybe not enough to make ya call it quits after a couple of hundred rounds of range work.  

Man, you don't ask easy questions and I think you know how tough a call this is for me - which of my children shall I sacrifice - arrrrgh!  But, for personal defense I would not hesitate to go with the 38 Super/9x23 Winchester and for either personal defense and field use I would not hesitate to turn to the 10mm.  Arrrrgh, Arrrrgh, Arrrrgh, Double Arrrrgh, and LOL.  Mikey.

Offline williamlayton

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2004, 02:23:11 AM »
It is a tough call, an, well thats the reason i'm not rushing to judgement.
This is how i'm looking at it now.
10mm--(good)more available ammo. less pressure concerns. more available receipts. good/excellent velocity and stopping power. can use/find good brass for reloading.  (BAD)excellent velocity- heavy recoil. Seems to be not a lot of consensus on the management of the recoil in reference to battering of frame, that said, all seem to think it maniagable and will do less harm to the weapon than originally thought. Weapons are available from a lot of different platforms although i'm looking for a 1911 ( a first for me ).
9x23--(good) Excellent velocity. Recoil, depending on receipt, very managable. Less concern about frame damage. Now this thought is both good and bad--it is reccommended the us of Winchester brass as the brass is heavier and will take the high pressure even in an unramped, read unsupported barrel. (Bad)- commercial ammo is spotty though available, even in Winchester white box at reasonable prices. Must say at this point, the caliber is growing in favor. At this point the best advice from those in the know is to use Winchester brass, though some other brass, the starline super comp brass, is a close second, and both are available.
The question still nagging at me is the ramped/unramped question and reliability. SVI appears to be very competent, as far as a manufacturer is concerned, and they use a very fine quality barrel (ramped) in their weapons. From opinion they are very reliable.
I am not nearly as concerned about this reload as aI am about the sig357 but figger I can handle it.
All that to say this---At this point I jest doan know what i'll do--yet.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Mikey

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2004, 04:23:10 AM »
williamlayton:  if your only concern is now about the ramped versus unramped barrels I think you shouldn't worry any more.  I haven't heard about many problems with ramped barrels, and those I hear about usually come from folks who had ramped barrels installed as an afterthought.  I think that SVI will come from the factory better than you would think and that their ramped barrels will feed anything you want to throw out of that 38 Super/9x23 Winchester case.  Just for the hay of it I would call SVI and tell them I want to purchase one of their pistols but that I wanted to be sure it would feed semi-wadcutter loads in the 9x23, and see what they say.  I say semi-wads or even wadcutters as they are the most difficult to feed.  

Also, when you talk about the 'need' for a ramped barrel you are talking about race guns that shoot about the heaviest load a case can take and you shouldn't have to worry about that if you're not in the 'game'.  There isn't anything for the 38 Super/9x23 Winchester that you can throw out of those cases from the older Lyman manuals that got 130 grainers out to 1398'/sec that has ever busted cases in my loads or barrels.  The two calibers are interchangeable, as best I know, even though one is semi-rimmed (38 Super) and the other is rimless.  

In fact, when the 9x23 first came out I wondered what all the hoopla was for as the loads they were bragging about were handloaders preferences, and mine, since the mid 60s.  Anywho, the gun writer who wrote the article about the 9x23 Winchester used both a new Colt in that caliber as well as one of his personal 38 Supers, and fired both cartridges (which included some of his pet handloads in 38 Super) from both guns.  And considering the general availability of the 38 Super caliber, you can always find ammo or brass.  HTH.  Mikey.

Offline Questor

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2004, 11:58:49 AM »
I couldn't resist: 45's don't save lives, people do (sometimes people with 45s.)
Safety first

Offline williamlayton

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2004, 12:54:37 AM »
I'm a big fan of being specific and clear, though I am not good at it, and all that to say this---yer right. :D
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline myronman3

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2004, 04:42:32 PM »
interesting post.  i have to say, i dont believe in warning shots.  it uses up precious ammo.  if i have to shoot at all; it will be to kill.  popping off his ammo almost cost this guy.   there are some things to learn from this.

Offline Dusty Miller

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2004, 08:53:51 PM »
Good point, the gun only comes out to deal with serious business.  If the perp does not back off post haste at the sight of the gun then its time to stop him.
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline williamlayton

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.45 saves innocent lives
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2004, 12:24:04 AM »
I'm gonna throw this out, now I aint pitchin for another forum, this is my town here. I just saw some pics of a gun done by Ned Christenson over on pistolsmith, in the custom makers section. Made me drool, lust, envious, all those othe adjetives.
Wish his waiting list wasn't five years long.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD