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Author Topic: Breech loader on a ACW monument  (Read 1497 times)

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Offline Cannoneer

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Breech loader on a ACW monument
« on: August 31, 2012, 02:30:47 PM »
An early breech loader that's part of a Civil War monument honoring a CSA victory at the "Battle of New Market" in New Market, VA. A brass plaque on the monument attributes this design to Henry F. Mann.











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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2012, 08:47:13 AM »
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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2012, 03:57:15 PM »
The gold-colored sign misspells the name of the company.  It is Singer, Nimick & Co.
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2012, 04:02:12 PM »
I think a breechloading cannon model I have was made by H.F. Mann, but I can't prove it.  The thread I did while trying to identify the model was on this board, many of you may remember it.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 02:10:03 AM »
Another photo.

HMdb.org
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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2012, 08:39:49 AM »
Quote from: cannonmn on September 04, 2012, 04:02:12 PM
I think a breechloading cannon model I have was made by H.F. Mann, but I can't prove it.  The thread I did while trying to identify the model was on this board, many of you may remember it.

Is this the model you're referring to?

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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2012, 08:53:45 PM »
Yes that one, thanks.  To prove beyond doubt that model was Mann's I'd probably need to find some documentation, maybe some institution has a collection of his papers, I haven't gone down that road yet.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 09:13:55 AM »
I wonder how many other individuals (American, British, European) there were, also working on "strap gun" designs in this general time frame?
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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2012, 02:10:03 PM »
Quote
I wonder how many other individuals (American, British, European) there were, also working on "strap gun" designs in this general time frame?

I haven't seen anything that was done overseas that I'd put in that category.  I've seen several American drawings or models or full-sized guns with variations of the concept.  Mann is one of the only inventors to put all of the breech-retaining stress on longish straps.  Another inventor, Moffett, also had long straps pivoting on trunnions but there were massive "locking lugs" at the breech that would take up all the firing stress.  I'll see if I can round up a few patents with some of the various concepts.  I think we went thru all this before here but it has been couple or few years.
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Offline guardsgunner

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2012, 03:19:45 PM »
The confederates made a strap type gun at the navy yard in Ga. Seems to me it was about a 12pdr. It is on display down there. I will see if I can find it in reference.
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2012, 07:07:21 PM »
Here are some of the strap-type gun patents I've found over the years.  If an inventor had more than one patent for that type gun (Mann, Moffatt..) I just posted the link to one of them.  In the case of the Mann patent listed here, I put the one that I think has the most characteristics resembling my model pictured above.  If anyone finds more strap-gun patents or info pls post here.  I can't remember if the gun Kabar led us to on Long Island was a strap-gun variant or not; if so I have the patent info.
 
http://www.google.com/patents?id=PkhfAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=breech+loading+ordnance&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
http://www.google.com/patents?id=RgwAAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=breech+loading+rifled+ordnance&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q=breech%20loading%20rifled%20ordnance&f=false
 
http://www.google.com/patents?id=KFRtAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=breech+loading+ordnance&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
http://www.google.com/patents?id=JsZOAAAAEBAJ&dq=breechloading+cannon&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=1&as_miny_ap=2009&as_maxm_ap=1&as_maxy_ap=2009&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=1860&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=1870&jtp=1#v=onepage&q=breechloading%20cannon&f=false
 
http://www.google.com/patents?id=F0kAAAAAEBAJ&dq=breechloading+cannon&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=1&as_miny_ap=2009&as_maxm_ap=1&as_maxy_ap=2009&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=1860&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=1870&jtp=1#v=onepage&q=breechloading%20cannon&f=false
 
http://www.google.com/patents?id=NORpAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=breechloading+cannon&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=1&as_miny_ap=2009&as_maxm_ap=1&as_maxy_ap=2009&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=1860&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=1870&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1#v=onepage&q=breechloading%20cannon&f=false
 
I have what I'm sure is a working model of the barrel and breech of this cannon, made by Weber, the patentee.  No carriage.  It is probably the patent model or part of it but I can't prove it.  The model's barrel is bronze and small parts are iron or steel. 
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2012, 07:11:15 PM »
I remember the two that you called boat howitzers, one rifled the other smoothbore, that were at first thought to be Mann's, but turned out to be R.R. Moffatt's design.
Then there was the gun on display in Long Island; wasn't that a different name?
I don't recall the gun that guardsgunner is referring to, but don't you have another small model where the maker's name is known?
I also seem to recollect one of the guys here (I think) posting a drawing of a similar type breechloader from Austria.
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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2012, 07:23:50 PM »
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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2012, 04:11:27 AM »
Quote
but don't you have another small model where the maker's name is known?

 

There is one other strap gun model here, with four trunnions, one each 90 degrees around the middle of the tube.  Those on the vertical axis hold the strap.  T
 
There are many working models here with known inventors.  I got positive ID's on the last one or two unknowns when I spent a week going through the Army Ordnance "Inventions" files at the National Archives about two years ago.  Several of the models here are engraved with the inventor's name, or came with old paperwork of some kind with the info., or the design was so distinctive that the info was found easily in patents or old magazine articles  The breechloading model pictured above is one of the few I have for which I couldn't develop any really solid info.
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2012, 05:44:19 AM »
Here's the previous thread which has a photo of my George Brayton strap-gun with four trunnions:
 
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=137119.0
 
I just mentally did an inventory of the breechloading inventor's models I own, most of which are in the vault, but here are the names anyway.  There are a couple not listed as they are as-yet not identified.  Most all of these have been mentioned if not pictured on this forum by me over the past few years:
 
 Inventor                                  Type of Gun
 
W.G. Armstrong              Typical Armstrong Screw-tigtened wedge, gravity recoil check field gun
George Brayton               Strap gun, 4 trunnions, one each 90 degrees around
C.F. Brown                     Reciprocating bolt driven by carriage wheel (impractical)
John M. Cochrane            Rotary multi-chambered, chambers in horiz. plane
Alexis Hebert                  ditto
W.W. Hubbell                  Rotary breech similar to "French 75mm"
Potter                           Cylindrical Plug breech, special projectile and carriage
L.C.T. Weber                  Strap gun, very complex, patented under carriage design
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2012, 02:58:59 PM »
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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Breech loader on a ACW monument
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2012, 03:19:29 PM »
Thanks, I don't recall seeing that Harding patent before.  So now you have the answer to the question of whether there were foreign-based strap guns, and the answer is yes, at least one.
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