Author Topic: Black Bear Bullet Question  (Read 2409 times)

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Offline kmeyer

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Black Bear Bullet Question
« on: August 18, 2012, 04:45:56 PM »
   My whitetail setup is a Super Blackhawk Hunter shooting factory Hornady 240xtp.  In 3 weeks I am going for Black Bear.  I've gotten bear with rifles before, but this will be my first pistol attempt.  My question is, should I stick with 240's or step up to 300 grain bullets.  Will there be much of a recoil difference?

Thanks all!

PS: Forgot to include it's a 44mag.

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 05:00:49 PM »
Unless you are familiar with and comfortable shooting the 300gr's now is not the time to fool around changing loads. If you make a point to hit where you aim, and aim to hit lungs you will do just fine. A pistol is not the choice if you are of the break them down camp. Think like a bowhunter and take out their lungs, bear are not armor plated.
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Offline drdougrx

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2012, 03:39:49 AM »
I wouldn't worry about it.  Bears are not that hard to kill (I've got three).  I would caution that you'll need to be very careful about shot placement as they have a tendancy to spin when hit and then run.  If you are stand hunting, TAKE YOUR TIME!  A great shot will present itself.
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2012, 04:40:24 AM »
Never killed a bear, but I know some, and there be a lot of them here during season.  I've always heard that the standard .44JHP is a favorite. 

Offline jhalcott

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2012, 03:04:47 PM »
 I agree that it's a bad time to change. Not enough PRACTICE time! The 240 XTP should be all you need for most black bears IF you are stand hunting and take the time for a good shot placement. You asked about recoil differences, so I believe you've never shot the 270's.

Offline ole 5 hole group

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2012, 03:28:16 AM »
 The 240 grain XTP will work just fine.  The 300 grain is also excellent, but you’ll have to try it to see if your front sight is tall enough to handle it – if you’re using a scope, then no problem.  The recoil will be more but unless you’re recoil sensitive, that won’t be a problem either.

Having a 5” barrel, here’s the velocity difference I get over a chronograph with my revolvers for comparison purposes.  The 300 grain loads are listed on the Hodgdon site as being their suggested maximum:
240 grain sierra jacketed – 20 grains IMR-4227 – 1,150fps
300 grain XTP seated on the 1st cannalure (sp?) from base giving 1.745”/1.734” OAL – 20 grains IMR-4227 – 1,060fps
300 grain XTP seated on the 2nd cannalure (sp?) from base giving 1.605” OAL – 20 grains IMR-4227 – 1,203fps

Offline kmeyer

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2012, 03:34:01 AM »
Thanks for everyone's input. I will stick with 240 then even though I wouldn't be messing with load recipe. I am shooting factory rounds and was curious if the extra weight was worth the drop in fps. As to 270's, I have never seen those. On hornadys site, they list 180, 200, 225, 240 and 300 for xtp factory rounds. 

PS: I do use a fixed Leupold 2x scope and my Blackhawk has a 7.5 inch barrel.

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2012, 04:31:20 AM »
Those factory loaded 240 grn XTP's will work fine, as long as you stick to lung shots, and try to avoid raking shots, or thru shoulder shots.  I have used this bullet to down quite a few big bodied whitetails, and it has always worked well.  The 300 grain version would likely give a little less expansion, and a little better penetration, with a greater chance of an exit hole (important in bear, as entrance holes tend to plug up with fat, leaving poor blood trails).  But, as others have said, pick your shots, and you will be OK.  Recoil with the 300 grain is a little more, but not really that much.  R/E a 270 grain bullet, not available in the XTP line, but I believe that weight is available in the Gold Dot hunting line.
 
Larry
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2012, 03:08:52 AM »
I have shot a few black bear with handguns, I would not use a 240 gr. XTP on one. I would go up to a 300 gr. If you are shooting over bait, the shots will not be that far. I only need one day at the range to see the difference in rounds.  I don't know why anyone would say 3 weeks is not enough time to change to a heavier bullet. Also I would use either a soft nose bullet or my preference is a hard cast. I want 2 holes in my bear. If you have to track a bear, you want a blood trail, two holes lets out more blood. I like to break down a bear, I like to shoot for the lungs as well as try to hit the off side shoulder. Sure black bear are not that hard to kill, but if you wound one, and have to track it in the thick woods, that can be a scary thing. A wounded bear will kill you. Shot placement is key.  Federal make a nice hard cast 300 gr. bullet.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline chefjeff

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2012, 09:38:40 AM »
I wasn't satisfied with 240gr. on deer,300 much better. Now shoot a 250 gr. XTP .452 in an MMP sabot.Out of a savage smokeless, and it is a pure hammer on NC deer.The 250 has better trajectory,sells by the 100/box,not 50 like the 300.You should most likely get that bigger bullet,maybe even hard cast a la Elmer Keith.

Offline Darrell Davis

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2012, 03:47:49 PM »
Just an Ol'Coot's opinion, but I'd be a lot more concerned with bullet quality then bullet weight.
 
There is not much room at my house for bullets which lack integrity, meaning bullets that do not hold together and keep going in the direction in which they started.
 
Being a cast bullet fan, a quality cast bullet with a wide flat nose (meplat) in a weight of 250 or more grains is simply a very good way to go.
 
There are jacketed bullet with the integrity to do the job, but you must do your home work and pick a good one.
 
The comment back a few posts about wanting two hole should be taken to heart!
 
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Offline jhalcott

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2012, 08:00:43 AM »
 I would agree with using a good CAST bullet for bear. That long fur can soak up a LOT of blood even with 2 holes in the bear! The sooner a bear bleeds out the better in MY opinion. Usually stands for bear WITH A HANDGUN are set up at bow hunting ranges. Less than 30 yards is normal. In Maine the black bear are NOT that big, less than 300 pounds average. I'd feel comfortable using a 240/250 grain bullet in my RSBH .44mag. In other areas the bears CAN run way more, but will still fall to a well placed 240/250 grain .44 bullet. Muscle memory with a KNOWN load can be helpfull IF you get a shot on the ground going to or from your stand.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2012, 07:52:46 AM »
I am all about hard cast bullets in my handguns. 98% of my bullets are hard cast in my hunting handguns.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline reloading_rich

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2012, 03:15:55 PM »
The 270 grain bullets are made by Speer.  They are in the Gold Dot line of 44cal bullets.  270 grain GDSP is their designation.  They are the only bullets that group well out of my 21" T/C Contender carbine setup.  For almost all of my other 44's in the stable hard cast work well with no exception.  I  am leaving for a Maine Black Bear hunt next week.  I plan on using a T/C Encore with an 8 inch GNR barrel chambered for 475 Linebaugh.  I will be using a Cast Performance 410 grain hard cast WFNGC over a book load of Win 296.  I hope all three of us that are going will be able to fill our tags.  We will take some pics if we are and be able to give a full report on the bullets and guns used. 
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Offline ratgunner

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2012, 03:27:49 AM »
IF I hunted bear I'd use a 270grn. GD or a 300grn XTP.
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Offline DDZ

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2012, 07:10:15 AM »
Being a cast bullet fan, a quality cast bullet with a wide flat nose (meplat) in a weight of 250 or more grains is simply a very good way to go.
 Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I agree You can't beat a good heavy cast bullet for the .44 mag. with a large meplat bullet. Its where the .44 shines.
Here's an article by Randy Garrett who specializes in making ammo for the .44 and 45/70 for taking large game.

Where defense against bear attack is   concerned, the best bullets for the large caliber handgun are clearly proper   hard-cast bullets. Expanding bullets are far too likely to fracture when   impacted into the tough bone of a bear’s skull.  This should be rather obvious   as any bullet designed to expand against the light resistance of a deer’s rib   cage cannot be depended upon for major bone busting on a big bear. When   selecting a hard-cast bullet for such applications, one should be careful to   choose an extremely heavy bullet with a broad frontal flat (meplat). It is also   important that the casting possess substantial inherent strength, with a   hardness rating of at least 19-Brinnell. The importance of selecting a heavy   bullet is twofold. First, heavier bullets penetrate deeper than lighter bullets.   Second, since heavier bullets cannot be driven as fast as lighter bullets, they experience less impact stress and are therefore less likely to fracture upon   impact.  This is very important, as the amount of stress experienced by a bullet   upon impact is the result of the speed of impact and the toughness of the   target. When the target is close and extremely tough, reliable performance is   always best achieved by increasing bullet weight and decreasing velocity. The   importance of selecting a bullet with a broad meplat is also critical, as broad meplated bullets tend to penetrate deeper than small meplated bullets. It has   become obvious to me through the years that although logic would seem to suggest   that heavy bullets with small meplats should penetrate deeper than blunter   bullets of the same weight and velocity, they usually don’t.  This is quite   interesting, as it would seem that the bullet with the smaller meplat would   offer less resistance to penetration and therefore should penetrate better than   the blunter bullet. However, nearly three decades of penetration testing with   the 44 Magnum has established beyond any doubt that the blunter designs penetrate the best.  The truncated cone is an excellent example of this. Although possessing meplats in the .210-inch to .230-inch range, truncated cones   do not penetrate as deeply as semi-wadcutters of the same weight and impact   velocity, and yet the semi-wadcutters I have tested possess meplat diameters of   about .285-inch. Later testing revealed that penetration would continue to   increase as the meplats increased in diameter up to about .320-inch. However, my   penetration testing demonstrated that meplat diameters significantly greater   than .320-inch, in 44 caliber, did not increase penetration depth, but instead   led to decreased penetration depth. It is always easier to observe than explain,   however it is my opinion that the reason for this pertains to the disparity in   weight distribution of small meplated bullets. Simply stated, when the back half   of the bullet carries significantly more weight than the front half, the back   half tends to over-take the front half upon impact.  In other words, the bullet   tends to go sideways since the back half carries more weight and has more   inertia.  As the weight disparity between the two ends of the bullet is reduced,   as in blunter designs, there is clearly less of a tendency for the back half to   over-take the front half, and the bullet takes a straighter and deeper path.    However, once this weight disparity has been corrected, any further increases in   meplat diameter tend to decrease penetration depth as terminal stability can no longer be improved.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2012, 07:32:02 AM »
I only have one bear with a hand gun and that fell to a 300 45 Colt at about 30 yards. I have loaded 44's for a couple friends that also shot bears with them. I load 270GD.

She measured 70" I shot her in 2000 Maine Blk Bear.




IMHO, its THE bullet for the 44 from carbines and longer barreled handguns. Almost the mass of the 300 with trejectories and velocities closer to the 240's. All with proven Gold Dot preformance.

Yes the 240 will do the job. I agree with big easy, choose your shots. A good way to always keep this a consideration is a trick form bow hunting. ALWAYS look at the opposite shoulder. now I know you cannot see it, so a better word than "see" might be "invision" where that off shoulder is and aim occordingly.

Do this and you will enjoy bear stew while resting your feet on a beautiful bear rug in front of the fire...

BEST OF LUCK ON THE HUNT!!!

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Offline drdougrx

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2012, 04:39:45 AM »
Nice trophy CW!
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Offline sixshot

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2012, 06:46:07 AM »
 Agreed, bear are not hard to kill with good placement but a 250 lb bear is more heavily muscled than a 250 lb deer, also more compact, shorter legs, etc. I like 2 holes & I always shoot cast but with good placement from a tree stand  you should be fine with your XTP, I would prefer heavier & really like the 270 gr Gold Dot, I've taken one elk with it & its great. I've taken 6 bears & hope to live long enough to take 6 more! That 240 gr XTP could be a real problem on bone.
 
Dick

Offline DDZ

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2012, 11:49:08 AM »
Don't know where you hunt bear, but in Pa, you generally don't get a nice broadside shot where you can put a bullet in the rib cage. Most all of the black bear I have seen have been on the move, and don't present that nice standing broad side shot. No I wouldn't trust the 240gr xtp either for anything other than a poke at the ribs. If you can say the bear you are going to see will be 250lb or under, and you are confident that you will have a broadside shot. By all means use the 240 Gr. XTP., but for anything else why not use a heavy cast bullet with a large meplat. Why not be ready for any bear that might only offer a frontal or quartering shot. That 300 cast will do everything that 240 gr. XTP will do, and then some, but the 240gr XTP will not do everything the 300gr cast will do. The 44 mag has the ability and accuracy to shoot heavy bullets. What reason is there to hunt bear with anything less?
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Offline Darrell Davis

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2012, 12:03:02 PM »
DDZ,  That is about as well said as it could be!
 
With the quality and ability of a well cast WFN boolit, especially in a heavier weights - 300 +/- in .44 and 425/450+ in a 45/70 - they rank right up there with the Nosler Partition of "J" bullet fame as per quality and integrity, but can be produced from scrap WW, in my case w/ 50% lead added and brought to temp in my shop over what is mostly a 50+ year old Coleman stove.
 
Sending something like the lesser quality/weight "J" bullets is like sending a boy to do a man's work!
 
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Offline cobrad

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2012, 06:32:08 PM »
I used to use Cast Performance 325 gr. WFN GC bullets in my .44 mag, loading 22 gr. H110. This was a max load and it was a very effective load. Fairly heavy recoil too. I used it to shoot my biggest bear ever, a 500+ black bear that made Boone and Crockett. Shot was very close at 10 paces. I shot him twice at the base of the neck as he was facing me. Those bullets penetrated end to end diagonally, stopping against the hide on the back of the leg. He didn't go anywhere, just stood there for a moment at the first shot, then collapsed at the second.
This year I'm using a 454 Casull shooting 260 gr. FA jacketed hard cast bullets. With luck this weekend, I'll get to see what they can do.

Offline tony212

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Re: Black Bear Bullet Question
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2012, 04:54:46 AM »
Kmeyer
       I've been hunting bears a long time.  I've shot them with rifles, bows and handguns.  Trust me on this one, your 240 XTPs will work fine.  Just remember the most important thing is bullet placement.  Whether it is a rifle, bow or handgun be responsible and wait for the right shot.  Part of being a good hunter is knowing when to shoot and when to pass up a shot.  Use your hunting skills to get the shot you want.. Hope this helps.
Tony212