Real or Repro? Caveat Emptor

[cannonmn]

When a new, never-before-seen model of line gun pops up, I kinda wonder.  This one somehow has a carriage by one company and barrel by another.  The carriage I've seen many times, with same marks but NEVER in bronze.  I have never seen a Galbraith gun of that model.
 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lyle-Life-Saving-Cannon-/190733388748?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c68988bcc
 
There are of course two concerns:
 
a.  If gun is repro, buyer will be getting an item that's probably worth nowhere what he paid.
 
b.  If gun is repro, the metal is probably suspect, and cannot be fired or at least can't be fired with the same loads as an original.

[rampa room artillery]

is it real?  yes. is it safe?   you can only know if you inspect it in person. but i would bet on it. it is missing the ignition system. but can be replaced. as far as the price. looks good at 700 dollars. for the maker? i am not up to date on prices but i know skuller guns are only worth 700 and yet i cant find one for less than 1200 dollars. i wish it had not been polished up. but i guess if you can prove it has always been polished and never let to dull then its value was not hurt.   maybe someone that is more knowledgeable on these line guns can help. looks WWI to me.

[rampa room artillery]

If you know larz  and if you do you know who i am talking about. i would call him, he has about 100 or so line guns and is the most educated man i know on line guns.

[cannonmn]

is it real? yes.

Thanks.  Will you tell us how you know that for sure?  Looks can be deceiving.

[Victor3]

 If it's real, why is it stamped "SOU" instead of "SON" 
 
 Cannonmn - You may remember about two years ago I contacted you when I saw a similar bbl with this same odd stamping. It was on a similar brass/bronze carriage but with a different maker's name cast into it. That particular one wasn't polished and had the ignition system (or at least some block thing) installed.
 
 I really wish I could know that it's a real one. It's only ~50 miles from me and the seller wants local pickup. Auctions like that sometimes don't go too high because far away folks don't bid on them. 

[cannonmn]

 

It's only ~50 miles from me and the seller wants local pickup.

That's be a no-brainer for me, I'd ask owner if I could come inspect it before bidding.  If they decline, unless they are a little old lady worried about getting robbed, I'd definitely suspect owner knows it isn't "right."
 
If you can get to see it in person, take maglite and look down bore, take scale and weigh it, check marks closer, look underneath etc.  Take a good magnet and test everything to see if really bronze or plated iron/steel.
 
The Galbraith fakes are made in Asia out of the cheapest yellow metal alloy they can find, NOT the high-tensile phosphor bronze the originals used, and might easily blow up.  Weight is usually less than on orig. gun.  Machining on down the bore may well be poor.  Since the makers don't speak English they often make mistakes like "SOU" vs. "SON."  If a USCG piece, it should have the tiny "propellor" USCG proofmark, with one letter of "USCG" on each prop blade.
 
Biggest red flag is that no beast of that design (rear-trunnioned BRONZE line gun) is yet known to the world.  Having two DIFFERENT known maker's names on the same gun is I think unprecedented.
 
Here's one final point to check. The rear trunnion (thick shaft connecting tube to carriage) on all rear-trunnion guns I've ever seen is ALWAYS steel, as it must be to resist the immense shear forces on firing.  If the shaft on this one isn't steel, I'm sure it is a fantasy/fake item.

[rampa room artillery]

how do i know it is real?     no bronze line gun has ever been faked that i know of. and why?  because it would cost more to have one cast then they are worth. you would have minimum of 1500 dollars in the barrel before you bore it. then you would still have to cast the rest of the parts.  they just dont demand the money to even think about faking them.  think about it. and they are everywhere. i see them all the time in antique shops.   normally you find sculler guns, for about 1200 dollars. 

[cannonmn]

no bronze line gun has ever been faked that i know of.

I've seen many fake Galbraith line guns made to look like the bronze original with trunnions in the center of the barrel.  They are considerably lighter than the originals.  The bores are often not smooth enough to fire a line projectile, and the muzzle marks may not be completely correct.  The carriage often has three pairs of small "bronze" wheels.

[rampa room artillery]

why spend the money to make a fake when you can buy a real one for 2000 dollars,  i would have almost that in making it. if not more,    i guess they could be faked,   i guess i am asking why would anybody want to unless they are the owner of a foundry? even then you would have to pay your workers.  i just dont see the money in it.

[intoodeep]

no bronze line gun has ever been faked that i know of.

I've seen many fake Galbraith line guns made to look like the bronze original with trunnions in the center of the barrel.  They are considerably lighter than the originals.  The bores are often not smooth enough to fire a line projectile, and the muzzle marks may not be completely correct.  The carriage often has three pairs of small "bronze" wheels.

 Cannonmn,

 Don't forget the Naval Company guns that were "faked" also. They will look like the one listed in this link.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/7446121

[GGaskill]

The faked bronze barrels may have been made before the recent steep rise (3X or more) in the prices of copper alloys.

[cannonmn]

 

Don't forget the Naval Company guns that were "faked" also. They will look like the one listed in this link.

So, Deep, aside from the obviously incorrect wooden carriage, how does one detect a fake Naval model F-B barrel from a photo?

[Victor3]

It's only ~50 miles from me and the seller wants local pickup.

That's be a no-brainer for me, I'd ask owner if I could come inspect it before bidding.  If they decline, unless they are a little old lady worried about getting robbed, I'd definitely suspect owner knows it isn't "right."
 

 I don't think it would be worth a 100 mile round trip. IMO, the incorrect muzzle stamping means it must be a fake. Never seen a gun marked "Wenchester" other than a Khybar Pass imitation.

[intoodeep]

So, Deep, aside from the obviously incorrect wooden carriage, how does one detect a fake Naval model F-B barrel from a photo?

 cannonmn,

 As you know photos can be tough. There is nothing like being able to physically touch and see an item. But, we can't always have that luxury.  So, to answer your question about an F-B.

 I think the two obvious things would be.

 1. The lack of muzzle markings and thinner wall thickness at the muzzle.
 2. The presents of chaplets on the breech sides as seen in the photo below.

 Now, most of the "Faked" Lyles that I have encountered also have a larger bores. They tend to be 2.625" instead of the 2.5". Also, in the case of the Naval F-B the chamber area is much larger then the bore which makes the breech wall thinner then the original.

 In regards to your original post. I have been scratching my head on that one. If it was not for the C.C.G muzzle markings. I would think that someone just pieced a base and tube together and had it plated. Maybe for some sort of presentation? Have you inquired if it's actually bronze? Also, the weight seems right for an original type. Since, the fakes weighed much less.

 Lastly, I have to agree with some of the other posts. I could never understand the reasoning behind these "fake" lyle guns. I wouldn't think that there would have been much of a market. But, we know for a fact that it was done.
 



 

[cannonmn]

Another "Galbraith" coming up soon.  Remember I mentioned the wheels on fakes I'd seen? 
 
http://www.cowansauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?ItemId=116496

[cannonmn]

I was told the auction house learned it was a repro and pulled it from its place in the upcoming auction, but may offer it later with a description of what it really is.  Auction houses seem to ignore negative info that comes up on a piece they have cataloged, but much to Cowans' credit, they took action the same day they learned it was a reproduction.
 
This piece has no muzzle markings.