Sabots and bullets

[tsigmon]

  ( I think I posted this in the wrong place the first time)   Last year about this time I was trying to get a  CVA Optima Magnum muzzle loader dialed in and was having 100 yd accuracy problems that I never solved . I got frustrated  and never got to try all of the combinations of sabots and bullets I had bought . Well, I'm getting started again and plan to try TC Mag Express Sabots for .451-.452 bullets with Hornady 45 cal. 250 gr.,  .452 dia. FTX  bullets starting with  85 gr.s of black powder and going up to 100 grs.
 
  When I looked up the bullets on the Hornady site I found out they are rifle bullets  for velocities of 1800-3000 fps. I have no idea I will get those speeds. The closest thing to that in a pistol bullet is 225 grs. rated  for 800-2100 fps. I guess the difference in speed recomendations is the thickness of the jacket. Am I close?
 
 If I get the accuracy I want, will I be sorry for using the rifle bullet at the slower than recommended speed  and loosing some expansion? 

[1sourdough]

 I chronographed a 120 grn load of Blackhorn 209 powder with my Knight & a 250 grn SST. I got a very consistent 1950 FPS, I think breaking 2000 fps with a 250 grn bullet isn't that common. If your gun is compatible I'd check into using B209 powder with a strong primer.

  Yes, you have to match the bullet size to the correct sabot for proper bore fit, not to tight or to loose. I do like a 45 cal bullet, usually .452 to be exact, maybe .451 for some bores.

[LanceR]

Are you using black powder due to a legal restriction?  What are you hunting and at what distances?

I suspect that 1900 FPS at the muzzle is asking for expansion issues as the bullet will be out of it's designed velocity envelope in a short distance.

The Hornady XTP pistol bullets are probably the single most common muzzleloader bullets and have killed a gazillion deer and other big game animals over the years.  A number of the specialty muzzleloader makers and suppliers package them with sabots under different names.  As a general thing the 250 grain .452 and 300 grain non-magnum .452 bullets have a sterling reputation for accuracy and terminal performance with the magnum bullets being maybe a bit less accurate.  My personal experience has been that the 250s usually don't pass through on deer broadside shots and that the 300s always have but I've never had any deer go more than 40 yards or so after a clean heart/lung shot with either weight.

All rifles are individuals and the specific sabot/bullet combination and such things as consistent seating pressure can make for some pretty dramatic differences in groups.

In any case, the Harvester Muzzleloading Crushed Rib sabots and Magnum Muzzleloading Products (mmpsabots.com) sabots will give you some great choices that cover a wide range of bore and bullet diameters.  The ribs on the crushed rib sabot are forgiving enough to get bullets from .451 to .458 bullet down my .50 Savage with good accuracy.  MMP make several thicknesses of sabots to accommodate different barrel and bullet combos.  You will save a lot of money over time and probably get better results by purchasing you sabots and bullets separately.

My advice (as long as there is no legal restriction) is to get some Blackhorn 209 and an assortment of sabots.  BH 209 wants a full power primer, not a reduced power "muzzleloading" primer.

What part of the world do you hail from?  If you are near me (Central New York) I'll gladly stake you to a variety of sabots and bullets to see if you can find something that makes you happy.

Good luck

Lance

[yellowtail3]

I'll weigh in. I've shot about everything in my CVA Buckhorn mag. I've gone to plain 250gr packaged bullets from TC (they're hornady XTPs, I think). 85-90gr of loose Pyrodex RS. Also use the Most accurate load for me was 300gr XTP, same powder... but haven't seen any in a good while.


250 XTP on top of 90gr will be sufficient... everything else is splitting hairs, to me. I don't shoot at range past 100yds with my ML, and almost never past 60-80 yards in the field, usually less.

[flintlock]

I like the Hornady .430 XTPs in 300 gr...They have a high ballist coefficient and it seems I can get them to group in my buddies inlines...I team them up with the Harvester plain green sabots and 80-90grs of FFF Goex...So far, they have shot well in 3 Knights, one Omega and one Optima...Here is what I got with my buddy's Optima...
 
 

[tsigmon]

Thanks for all of the replies. I got to shoot twice this weekend and used the same combination of bullet and sabot both days, T/C Mag Express Sabots for .451-.452 bullets with Hornady 45 cal. 250 gr.,  .452 dia. FTX  bullets.
 
 Saturday I used Triple 7 50/50 pellets for a 100 gr. charge  and after  zeroing I got ~2" group @ 100 yds. Boy was I happy! Last year at this time  all I could get was 7"-8"
 
Today I used Shockey's Gold and got the same results with a 100 gr charge. I increased the charge to 120 grs.  and the group dropped a little to ~1 3/4 "or a fuzz less. It also raised  the group about  1 1/2" so I dropped the point of impact. It now shoots  the center of the group ~1' high  @ 100 yds. The  Tripple 7 using the pellets would have had a charge of 125 grs. and I feel sure it would have done pretty much the same thing, I just didn't try it.
 
The only difference I saw in the powders is the Gold shoots a good bit cleaner. I used T/C No. 13 slovent/ lube to clean with between shots and it took the same amount of time and patches  with each powder . I'm going to stick with the Gold for now only because  that's what was working when I quit.I wouldn't have any problems  using the Triple 7 and will when the Gold runs out.
 
Where I'll be hunting here in SC during the muzzel loading season, a long shot will be 70-80 yds. more likely 45-60 yds. will be the range I'll  shoot, so I guess I need to shoot @ 50 yds  to see where it hits. I'll still probably stay with the 120 gr.  Gold charge just in case I do get a chance at a longer range shot even though a 100gr. charge would more than likely do the job. I guess  after the shotgun pattern groups I was getting last year  I'm going to stay with this last combination that worked pretty well.
 
I have the accuraccy I want but still the question on the bullets. When I looked up the bullets on the Hornady site I found out the bullets I am using are rifle bullets  for velocities of 1800-3000 fps. I have no idea I will have those speeds. The closest thing  in a pistol bullet is 225 grs. rated  for 800-2100 fps. I guess the difference in speed recomendations is the thickness of the jacket. Am I close? Will I be sorry for using the rifle bullet at the slower than recommended speed  and loosing some expansion? 
 

[Landngroove]

I have had good luck hunting with a Hornady FTX .44 caliber, .430", 225 grain, with a green .50 cal. Hornady sabot. I used 100 grains FFG Goex with this load. This is also a pistol bullet, so you should not have expansion problems.

[1sourdough]

 If it was me I would ditch the Shocky's Gold powder, it's slow, erratic, & gravely. Yes, I did chronograph & test it. I'd try to gravitate towards loose 777 if you can't shoot Blackhorn 209.

  Yes, if you use a 'rifle bullet' at M-L velocities you could easily have zero expansion. There are a bunch of great components available, may as well use the right stuff.

[srussell]

the xtp bullet on top of 90grains of black  will flat hammer a white tail deer. you do,nt have to worry about expansion. never shot the god but would say it will do the same. never lost a deer i shot wit xtp,s. that bullet the 250 grain xtp is a pistol bullet made for the 45colt it will expand at 700/1400 fps

[theblackcloud]

i don't mean to get off topic, but what are more accurate, powerbelts, or common sabots?

[tsigmon]

For me the sabots and bullets do better than the Powerbelts. I think the gun has much  to do with it . I shoot a CVA Optima  that would scatter the Powerbelts all over the target, more like a shotgun pattern, and a friend has a T/C  that shoots the powerbelts  very well.  He was lucky and hit on a good combination  first go round. I, on the other hand, had a lot of trial and error  to find a good combination . As of now I'm using T/C Mag Express Sabots for .451-.452 bullets with Hornady 45 cal. 250 gr.,  .452 dia. FTX  bullets over 120 grs. of Shockey's Gold.  Powder type and brand made no noticeable difference in accuracy for me. The size of the charge did make a slight difference.