Author Topic: 358 Winchesters at the range today  (Read 2122 times)

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Offline 336SC

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358 Winchesters at the range today
« on: August 13, 2012, 12:58:15 PM »
Took my two bolt action 358's to the range today.  Tested 8 different bullets with TAC powder.  Bullets tested for speed and accuracy were the 200gr HDY RN, 200gr HDY Spire Point, 200gr RP PCL, 200gr HDY FTX, 220gr Speer FN Hot Core, 225gr Sierra BTSP, and
the 250gr HDY RN.  I had my Ruger Hawkeye and my custom built Remington 700 action with an ER Shaw barrel and tuned action along for the testing.  On average the tuned 700 action shot better but the smallest group fired was with the Ruger and the 200gr HDY FTX bullets.  The 200gr loads were right in the mid 2600fps area, the 220/225 grain loads were in the lower 2520fps area and the big
250gr HDY RN was right at 2403fps.  None of the loads were under 3000 ft/lbs of energy.  The HDY 250gr RN was right at 3266 ft/lbs of thump!  Not too shabby for a cartridge very few of us find any use for.  Every recorded velocity today exceeded the 35 Whelen factory loads of 200 and 250 grain shot in my Remington 700 Classic from 1988.  Each time I experiment with my three 358
Winchesters I am more and more pleased.  The one 358 I did not have along today was my rechambered 760 carbine which is my favorite woods rifle.  Easy to carry and get thru the thick brush and absolutely deadly on Whitetail deer.  I'll have to give some of the
above loads a try in that 760 pump.  My standard velocity with it's 18.5" barrel is right at 2400fps and all 15 deer shot with it were hit
with a 200gr RN bullet, either HDY or Remington Core-lokt.  All the kills were one shot affairs and 13 were bang flops.  The other two maybe went 25 yards banging off trees the whole 25 yards.  Those two blood trails were impressive also.
336SC
 
 
 
 
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Offline alan in ga

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2012, 01:16:47 PM »
One of my favorite rounds. Had a Ruger 77R in .358. Muzzle looked like a .410 shotgun muzzle! I think Ruger should have used the one step heavier contour for the .358 Win....the one they use on their .338 Win Mag rifles. The .358 Win recoils enough to enjoy a bit more steel [weight] in the barrel!
Hunted and enjoyed mine until an elk hunter wanted it badly so I said "I've had it for 12 years and it's time it went out west.....enjoy".

Offline Savage_99

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2012, 05:32:42 PM »
I have been a .358 Winchester aficionado since I got my first one, a 99F, in 1964 and used it primarily on VT bucks.   I have a number of them now and it's my sentimental favorite woods rifle.
 
 Here are a few of my hunting rifles.



The two on the bottom are .358's.

Offline RevJim

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2012, 10:52:48 AM »
 I certainly was impressed with the 358 I had in the BLR. In fact, if I still lived down in Texas, I would have kept it. I sold it, not because I didn't like it, I just knew I wouldn't leave my 35 Whelen AI at home, ha. I "wished" I would of had that little BLR growing up in SE Texas, I would never (probably) tried the 35 Whelen (or Improved) But hey, better late than never.
  I "almost" bought a 358 Ruger Hawkeye SS but the BLR was on its way to me when I saw it. Now, I wish I would have had the longer magazine of the Ruger. But, we have a Ruger Hawkeye SS in .338 Federal in the family, so I played it safe.
 Sent you an email Bob!

Offline JesterGrin

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2012, 07:44:04 PM »
 So I take it that you like that Hornady 200Gr FTX with TAC?

Offline 336SC

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 07:45:55 AM »
I certainly do like the 200gr HDY FTX when using TAC.  I just don't know if it will hold up when launched at 2659fps and smacking into a Whitetail deer however.  I have killed deer with the 200gr FTX loaded to 2400fps and it held together nicely at that speed.
358 Win
USN, 10 Jul 1969 - 6 Dec 1973.  NRA Life Member.  Master Mason, Porter Lodge #284, 10th Masonic District.

Offline JesterGrin

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 01:13:13 PM »
Well my Friend looking at this if you are at least 25 yards away from the Game there should be no Worries. :) As the Speed Range of the FTX by Hornady is 1800-2600 FPS. So I would probably not use it for an up close finish shot if needed lol.  So you are good to go from 25 yards out to a hair more than 300 yards. Not bad for a Short Range Brush Gun lol. :)




 
Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.300Velocity (ft/s)2659Weight (grains)200
Maximum Range (yds)500Interval (yds)25Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches)1.5Shooting Angle (degrees)0Zero Range (yds)200
Wind Speed (mph)0Wind Angle (degrees)90Altitude (ft)0
Pressure (hg)29.53Temperature (F)59Humidity (%)0.78
Ballistics Results  - 358 Winchester 200Gr FTX
Range (yards) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft.-lb.) Trajectory (in) Come UP in MOACome UP in Mils Wind Drift (in) Wind Drift in MOAWind Drift in Mils
Muzzle26593140-1.500000
252584296600.10000
50251228011.1-2.2-0.6000
75244026431.9-2.5-0.7000
100236924932.4-2.3-0.7000
125230023492.4-1.9-0.5000
150223122112.1-1.3-0.4000
175216420801.3-0.7-0.2000
20020981955000000
22520331836-1.70.70.2000
25019701723-41.50.4000
27519071615-6.92.40.7000
30018461513-10.33.31000
32517861417-14.44.21.2000
35017281326-19.15.21.5000
37516711240-24.66.31.8000
40016161159-30.97.42.1000
42515621083-388.52.5000
45015101013-469.82.8000
4751460946-54.9113.2000
5001412885-64.912.43.6000
 

Offline 336SC

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 02:16:07 PM »
Wow Jestergrin, thank you for the ballistic write up on the HDY FTX 200gr @ 2659!!!  I'm gonna print it out and keep it in my .358 Win data file!!  That's super!  I'll have to keep my shots beyond 25yds with it.  I do like those 25 yard shots though!  I'm gonna use my load with TAC and the 200gr FTX in my
Ruger Hawkeye this coming deer season.  Thanks again for the heads up!
336SC
USN, 10 Jul 1969 - 6 Dec 1973.  NRA Life Member.  Master Mason, Porter Lodge #284, 10th Masonic District.

Offline JesterGrin

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2012, 02:36:19 PM »
What help :). You do far more than I could even start to help.


And you can just go to the Hornady web site and click on external ballistics and put in the information and you get what I put up. :) I use it a bunch. I mainly started to use it for my Marlin 45-70 so I would know where to sight it in at 100 yards and how far I could go with how much drop. I pick the 25 yard thing as it really shows more of rise and fall of the bullet. Or at least for myself it gives me more of an idea on what the bullet is doing.

Offline 336SC

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2012, 03:54:15 AM »
What help :) . You do far more than I could even start to help.


And you can just go to the Hornady web site and click on external ballistics and put in the information and you get what I put up. :) I use it a bunch. I mainly started to use it for my Marlin 45-70 so I would know where to sight it in at 100 yards and how far I could go with how much drop. I pick the 25 yard thing as it really shows more of rise and fall of the bullet. Or at least for myself it gives me more of an idea on what the bullet is doing.
Thank you my friend!
Bob
USN, 10 Jul 1969 - 6 Dec 1973.  NRA Life Member.  Master Mason, Porter Lodge #284, 10th Masonic District.

Offline flinter54

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2012, 09:42:40 AM »
336SC,


Thanks for the great range information. I have owned a Ruger Hawkeye in .358 Win now for 3 years and I absolutely enjoy it. Each year I have used a different bullet for deer season. This year I have decided to give the Speer 220 FP a try. Wondering on the accuracy of your load using this bullet? So far I have used the Sierra 225 Game King and the Hornady 200gr RN with great success. I'm sure the 220gr Speer will get the job done equally as well as the previous two. Also, have you or anyone else for that matter have any stories using this bullet on big game? Have a great day!


Flinter 54

Offline muznut 54

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2012, 11:35:53 AM »
I have had a BLR in 358 for about ten years. I use the 200gr Hdy for deer and 220gr bear claws for bear. All my deer were bang flops and one bear made it about fifteen feet. 

Offline alan in ga

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2012, 03:35:39 AM »
The 200 Hornady round nose is a great bullet and makes some 'purtty' mushrooms! I used the same bullet in spire point version just because it looked sexier [ha!].
The RN is probably the best .358 bullet for small/medium game I've found. Great out of .35 Rems, too. Most of my deer killed averaged 36 yards when I compiled all of about 50 or so that I could remember. Farthest only 165 yards, closest....well....glad I didn't get back splatter!
Love the .358 Win.

Offline 336SC

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2012, 01:14:49 AM »
Flinter54,  I have not killed a deer with the 220gr Speer FN to date but it is my favorite bullet in my 18.5" barreled .35 Whelen I cobbled
up on a Savage 110 using an ER Shaw barrel.  Super accurate out of that Whelen @ 2600fps.  Looking at my targets for that range session the other day, the Ruger did 2528fps into 1", and the Remington 700 custom did 2502fps into 6/16".
336SC
USN, 10 Jul 1969 - 6 Dec 1973.  NRA Life Member.  Master Mason, Porter Lodge #284, 10th Masonic District.

Offline 336SC

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2012, 01:20:18 AM »
alan in ga,
I agree with you about the 200gr HDY RN bullet!  It has always been incredably accurate and devastating on deer in my .35 Remingtons
and my 358 Winchesters.  It was a little ugly on the meat when I used it from my 18.5" barreled pump 760 @ 2400fps.  I tried the RPCL
200gr RN and it was just as deadly on deer but a little gentler on the eating parts so I switched to that bullet.  Out of my .35 Remingtons
either the HDY or RP 200gr RN bullets has been equally effective.
336SC
 
USN, 10 Jul 1969 - 6 Dec 1973.  NRA Life Member.  Master Mason, Porter Lodge #284, 10th Masonic District.

Offline flinter54

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2012, 04:17:43 AM »
336SC,
 
Thanks for the imput. I had the Hawkeye to the rane yesterday and found that 51.6 gr of Win 748 and a WLRM primer gave me the best results with the Speer 220. I currently dont own a Chronograph, so I'm not sure on the velocity, however the group was right at 1 inch. I was hoping for bettter but then again that will put meat in the freezer all day long. So far with this rifle I have shot one deer with the 200gr RN, and 3 deer with the Sierra 225. My brother borrowed the rifle and shot a nice big Sow with the Sierra 225 as well. All animals required no tracking. I'm sure the 220 speer will have similar results.
 
Flinter54

Offline 336SC

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2012, 10:03:53 AM »
Flinter54, I have always been intriqued by the Seirra 225gr boat tail .35 caliber bullet.  I've shot many good groups with it but never took a load
hunting that had the Sierra bullet loaded.  I'm afraid of the bad reputation Sierra has gotten over the years about their bullets breaking up on impact with a deer.  I've got Sierra bullets in my bullet locker for 6mm, 270 win, 7mm, .308 caliber, and .35 caliber but never in 48 years of hunting did I trust to use one on deer.  I like their group ability but always shot my deer with Speer, Hornady, Remington, Winchester or Nosler bullets.  How did your loads with the 225gr BT Sierra perform?  I would be interested to hear your response.  Thanks!
336SC
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Offline flinter54

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2012, 04:47:34 AM »
336SC,
 
Let me preface this by saying I have limited experience with the 225GK having only shot 3 animals with it and a brother that shot a hog with the same load.
 
With that said, the performance of that bullet out of my 358 has been nothing less than awesome. The first deer I shot with it was a doe that weighed anywhere between 120 and 140 lbs. She was standing broadside at 90 yards. I put the hairs on her shoulder and at the shot she collapsed and was probably dead before she hit the ground. When I field dressed her it appeared like there was some serious expansion going on, as the enterance hole into the chest cavity was the size of a golf ball. The heart was intact but there were no distinguishable features regarding the lungs. They were the "bowl of jelly" that we sometimes see. The bullet continued through the off side shoulder and exited the animal with a nickle size hole. To say the least I was very pleased.
 
The second doe was quite a different story. She was quarterig too me at 173 yards. I was also elavated up on a hill side shooting down into a hay field. The bullet hit her on the leading point of her front left shoulder. She jumped, spun, ran about 15 yards then slowed to a drunken walk until she fell over. The bullet broke the on side shoulder penetrating through the lungs and exiting the animal in front of the paunch. There was little sign of bullet expansion. The lungs had a neat little 35cal hole through them with about a quarter to a half an inch of blood shot tissue surrounding the hole. I contribute this lack of expansion to lower velocity at that distance and lets face it a 120lb doe does not offer much mass to help open that bullet up.
 
The third animal was a little six point. 45 yards broadside/downhill. At the shot he also collapsed, and the internal damage was much the same as the first doe mentioned above.
 
My brother shot his hog at 105 yards. It was quartering away and slightly up hill. The bullet entered behind the last rib on the left side and exited the animal between the neck and the right front shoulder. He said it dropped squeled and that was it.
 
Before loading this bullet for the 358, I too had read problems of Jacket-Core Separation pertaining to the Sierra's. I figured since that bullet was designed for the Whelen, it would be just fine for the slightly lower velocity of the 358 Win.  I have no experience with the smaller caliber sierra's so I can't speak to that. However I do believe when it comes to that issue of Jacket-Core Separation, it is as much a matter of velocity as it is bullet construction. Put a .277 130gr game king on the shoulder of a white tail at 40 yards with a striking velocity still 3000+ fps, that is asking a whole lot of  bullet that has no mechanism to lock that core into the jacket. Now put that same bullet on the same shoulder of that deer at 350-400 yards when it has had a chance to slow down to the mid 2000's fps I believe it would be a totally different story.
 
I know that was a long winded response, however I do hope it shed some light on that 225 Sierra. I would not hesitate at all to use it again. Its very accurate and with the velocity produced by the 358 Winchester, it is a winning combination.
 
Flinter 54

Offline 336SC

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2012, 11:23:38 AM »
Thanks Flinter54 for the response!  I totally agree with you about velocity at impact being the controlling factor for standard cup and core bullets.  Sounds like that 225gr 35 caliber Sierra worked well for you out of your .358 Win.  Do you know what speed you were launching them at?  The cartridge I have shot a lot of deer with is the .308 Winchester and it has been the most destructive to the eating parts.  I've got a nice Winchester Model 70 classic compact with 20" barrel.  It launches the 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip @ 2868fps using a near max load of IMR3031 and it is scary accurate to boot.  Unfortunately the 150gr Ballistic Tip really mangles things up.  So far they have all exited and I've found no fragments.  Another .308 carbine I once had (a Rem Model 600) did the same thing to a nice buck I shot quartering towards me.  Hit the right shoulder and it stopped in the right ham.  Bone fragments from the shoulder blasted into the right lung and killed it.  The bullet never hit an internal organ what so ever.  When skinning it you would have thought a bomb went off on the shoulder knuckle.  The recovered bullet weighed 106gr and expanded to .560".  The velocity of the 150gr Speer Spitzer was only 2688fps.  Almost the exact velocity I get with my f.our .300 Savage rifles (a 99, a 722, a 700 Classic, and a 7600 pump).  Last years deer was shot with one of my 30-06 rifles using the Speer 150gr Mag Tip @ 2938fps.  Same frontal shot into the right shoulder and stopped in the right ham after breaking the heavy rear leg bone.  Recovered bullet weighed 108gr and expanded to .578".  Not nearly as nasty a mess as with the .308 Win but the Mag Tip is sort of a premium bullet in their bullet line up.  My 15 deer killed with the .358 Win were DRT except 2 of them and they only went 25 yards or so.  Not nearly any mess at all.  But it's a relatively heavy bullet at moderate volicity (2400fps to 2500fps) depending which .358 I have in my hands at the moment.  Come to think of it, my one kill with the .35 Whelen was not all messed up either.  Sorry for being so long winded!  Thanks for your response also.
358 Win
 
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Offline JesterGrin

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2012, 01:18:35 PM »
With Deep Regret Today I have to say that I fired 50 rounds and it went from Bad to Where did they go lol. So it was not a good day. But at least I got to make some NOISE lol.

The Basic Cartridge was the BRP 360-220 GC with BAC and New 358 Winchester Brass with WOLF LRP.

The Powder was IMR-3031 starting at Book Low of 41.0 Gr up to 45.0 Gr in .5 jumps 5 rounds each. I will now work down on the powder charge as the 41.0 Gr charge was the best of the Worst lol.

By the Book since I do not have a Chrono it says that the 41.0 Charge is right at 2200 FPS which I think might be a bit much.

So my next go around I will start with 32.0 Gr up to 40.5 Gr of IMR-3031 in the same .5 jumps.

The 50 pieces of Brass is in the Tumbler as I type this and when ready I will reset the sizer to neck size and start again. Smiley

Offline muznut 54

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2012, 02:27:40 PM »
Get rid of those rusky primers, that might help. ;)

Offline flinter54

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2012, 12:32:17 PM »
336SC, with what little experience I do have with the 225GK and the .358 Win, I do believe it is a great combination. Since I don't have a Chronograph yet (will be getting the Ohler 35P soon) I'm not sure exactly what my load was producing. With my best interpolation I would say that the bullet was out of the muzzle around 2425-2475. I do believe that is a good ballpark figure.


For deer sized game, once you get out to 225   yards I believe the 225GK needs more velocity than what the .358 Win can offer  to consistently expand.  Where I choose to sit on our hunting property, my shots are close. So this load is next to perfect for what I need. If I know I'm going to be shooting out to 300, I would opt for the Nosler Accubond or Partition at that point. They claim that you will get positive expansion down to 1800fps.


Sounds like you getting great results from your .30 Cal's. Speer makes a good product, I have not tried their Hot-Core bullets, but I have shot a few deer with their Grand Slams and their Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. (before Federal picked up the TBBC's). As for the original Nosler Ballistic Tips....wow can we say Grenade's. With their light weight construction and the Plastic tip initiating the expansion. Lots of bloodshot meat. Have you tried any of the product from Barnes? Everyone in my family except for me, shoots the Barnes TSX, they love them and have had wonderful success with them. Its not that I don't like them, they are a great bullet. I just prefer bullets that are a little more cost effective.






Offline JesterGrin

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2012, 12:45:28 PM »
Get rid of those rusky primers, that might help. ;)

You know I really like to prove people wrong lol.

Ok 3 Five Shot Test Groups at 50 yards. I think I might be on to something lol.  Today was a HAPPY DAY With a HAPPY DANCE lol. Yes I did scare the straights lol. :) And yes each group is 5 Shots.


Offline 336SC

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2012, 02:20:41 PM »
flinter54,  I'm with you about shooting more cost effective bullets!!  Friends of mine us the Barnes line of bullets and overall they are quite satisfied with their performance.  I just don't see the need for such an expensive bullet to kill our skinny Whitetails here in NE PA.  My friend has a bunch of nephews who all hunt our Whitetail deer with, get this, 338 Rem Ultra Mag shooting 250gr HDY RN bullets at over 2800fps!  I just can't see the need.  When my best friend told the group at a Thanksgiving dinner that I bang flopped a doe that hunting seasone with an open sighted Win Model 94 in .32 Win Special, he said their jaws just dropped.  They asked him several times, and it went right down.   I've learned a long time ago, it isn't how big the cartridge is, it's where you hit them.  Proper bullet and precision bullet placement works everytime!  Almost forgot to mention, but my Ruger and rebarreled 700 action both shot the 225gr Sierra .35 caliber bullet to 2520fps using TAC.
3336SC
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Offline JesterGrin

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Re: 358 Winchesters at the range today
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2012, 02:30:04 PM »
If you Wish to go Cheap Cast Your Own. Lead has been killing Game for Hundreds of years before there was even a glimpse of a Jacketed Round lol. And as the Target I have posted shows Lead Cast Bullets can Group pretty darn good. :)

I will say however that a standard Cup N Core Bullet will work just fine for the .358 Winchester. And the only reason I would go to an expensive bullet in the .358 Win is for areas that now require the use of Non Lead Bullets of which then I would give Barns the nod with there 200Gr.


Get rid of those rusky primers, that might help. ;)

You know I really like to prove people wrong lol.

Ok 3 Five Shot Test Groups at 50 yards. I think I might be on to something lol.  Today was a HAPPY DAY With a HAPPY DANCE lol. Yes I did scare the straights lol. :) And yes each group is 5 Shots.