Author Topic: .444 for this season. (Read 2390 times)

keith44 · « **Reply #30 on:** October 02, 2012, 01:15:53 PM »

Quote from: jeepmann1948 on October 02, 2012, 01:01:37 PM

As far as shooting a mile away with a 45-70 a feller better take his tooth brush and razor because before the bullet gets to the target he will have time brush his teeth and shave. (and will probably need to!)
Happy Trails
George

LOL, yup, she's no speed queen

hoytcanon · « **Reply #31 on:** October 02, 2012, 01:55:19 PM »

Quote from: LaOtto222 on October 02, 2012, 04:01:35 AM

Quote from: Littlepage on October 01, 2012, 03:55:19 PM
Quote from: hoytcanon on October 01, 2012, 02:32:17 PM
Quote from: LaOtto222 on September 30, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
The problem is; The 444 Marlin is the 45-70's weak sister. The 45-70 will kill game much deader and will do it from 1/2 a mile away. With a 444 Marlin you would be lucky to kill anything on the far side of 200 yards. How much nostalgia does a 444 Marlin have - not much. How many American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin? I bet it is just a small fraction as many as the 45-70 has killed. The 45-70 has killed hundreds, if not thousands. It is highly unlikely that more than a dozen American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin. That alone is worth having a 45-70 over a 444 Marlin.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

I'm not looking to start a war over this (especially with a .45/70 )... BUT, I couldn't just let it slide... The above is the most DUMB-AZZED post I have ever read... PERIOD!
I feel the same. That's like saying the 7.62x39 is the best 7.62 round because it has killed so many Americans. By the way anybody know what killed the most Germans, the 30-06, 303, or 7.62x54r?

How much nostalgia do you get thinking about the 7.62X39? Is that the reason people have them?

I guess some people do not know when they are being spoofed. Pete gets it. So I will spell it out for them. I own a 444 Marlin Handi rifle, I do not own a 45-70 of anything. Nostalgia means very little to me, what does, is how they shoot and how they meet my needs. I really do not see the all the hoopla over the 45-70, it is just another good cartridge, as is the 30-06 as is the 223 as is the 7mm Mauser as is the 35 Remington as is the 444 Marlin a good cartridge. I choose the 444 over the 45-70 because I had 44 Mags and the bullets are the same size, so I did have to stock another size on the shelf. The 444 is as accurate as any other big bore and will kill any thing walking, crawling or flying on this Continent. Once something is killed (the 444 will kill), it is killed no matter if it with a 22 rimfire or a 45-70, it is dead. So you can not kill something deader with a 45-70. So if you really need a 45-70 loaded to very high levels to kill something, why not get a 458 Win Mag and do it right.

Really?

Well I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer... but sarcasm is generally my weapon of choice... the ultra subtle nature of the sarcasm used in your first post was lost on me... of course, I don't know you, and alot is lost in the written word, as opposed to spoken word (tonal inflection, body language, facial expression etc...)... However, I would say, that if one is utilizing sarcasm in suggesting that a particular caliber be celebrated due to the historical significance of its killing past, then that same person might well consider that their ultra sharp and subtle sense-of-humor might be lost on some readers (me) and leave an offensive taste... not that I am generally the sensitive sort... at any rate, peace to you and good shooting.

hoytcanon · « **Reply #32 on:** October 02, 2012, 02:04:55 PM »

Quote from: jeepmann1948 on October 02, 2012, 01:01:37 PM

As Pete said,I certainly enjoy a lively discussion.
Any of the regular readers know LaOtto is a real fan of the 45-70 and the 444.Some here might take offense of the merest slander of the Holy 45-70 much less to actually say there are cartridges much better suited for every use in the shooting world.The 30-06 comes to mind very quickly and I am sure with some minor ciphering more will come to mind.With that being said. Both the 444 and 45-70 are fine cartridges and have many applications,especially in the Primitave weapon hunting arenas.
As far as shooting a mile away with a 45-70 a feller better take his tooth brush and razor because before the bullet gets to the target he will have time brush his teeth and shave. (and will probably need to!)
Happy Trails
George

George... you missed my point... I don't care if someone is slandering a "caliber..." Heck, that's what we are all doing here, talking about our favorites and our peeve's... my suggestion was that it was unpalatable to celebrate a caliber specifically because it "killed " thousands of people... historical useage is one thing... but being gleeful about wanton killing (or even the regretable effects of war) and owning a weapon to celebrate all that death is twisted (IMO)... that is my opinion... and opinions are what forums are for.

keith44 · « **Reply #33 on:** October 02, 2012, 06:51:40 PM »

So before getting really peeved, may I suggest reading and re-reading posts that seem distasteful. Just to be certain someone is not using sarcasm. Also I usually try to use emoticons (

$:-\$

) to help ensure it is understood when I am just playin' around.

Try not to take things to heart after a thread drifts into, well this.

Have a good one

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #34 on:** October 03, 2012, 03:02:27 PM »

Boy, I hadn't read but the first few posts until now. I think LaOtto was using some material that had come up before on this subject and I don't think he meant anything mean or in bad taste. It has been an ongoing battle of the two cartridges. The weak sister was a reference from our friend up North I believe. If a person hasn't read some of the posts on certain things it can be easy to misunderstand what some are getting at. If I'm wrong about this, I apologize.

But, I am curious about how much holdover is needed to throw that hunk of lead a mile.
Probably in those links, I'll have to look at later.

Added: I have to go watch the two smartest people in the country on TV

bucmeister · « **Reply #35 on:** October 03, 2012, 03:38:53 PM »

I can only imagine the amount of hold over needed for a round from the 45-70 to be on target at 1760 yds, talk about a rainbow arc. We need to talk to Mathew Quigley about shots that far,

since his gun would shoot a "might further" his gun's sight mechanism might have been able to adjust for enough hold over to shoot a mile!!

Not so sure about the two "smartest people in the country", though one might measure the smartest person might be considered to be the one that knows they are not so smart as to not know that they need to call in experts in various fields, for that I believe Mr. Romney has well demonstrated his ability to do so. Guess by that statement you might easily figure out which one I wholeheartedly support!!!!

tturner53 · « **Reply #36 on:** October 03, 2012, 04:32:38 PM »

I solved this problem the easy way. I got both!

keith44 · « **Reply #37 on:** October 03, 2012, 07:50:15 PM »

Hold over was likely measured in yards, but from one of the links it seems angles of elevation were recorded for posterity

Angles of rifle elevation were: Springfield service .45-70-405 - 17 degrees 8 minutes 16 seconds; Springfield long range .45-80-500 - 10 degrees 38 minutes 21 seconds; and Martini-Henry .45-85-480 - 13 degrees 20 minutes 18 seconds.
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dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #38 on:** October 04, 2012, 02:09:22 AM »

#1 The 22 LR package states it can be dangerous out to 1 mile. The 444 can throw lead out as far as the 45-70 with less angle of elevation.
#2 With the change in twist for the 444 in Marlins and Handi's, the 444 Marlin has generated more than 2150 fps with a 405, yes,

[size=78%] 405gr. bullet with 4100 foot pounds of energy out of a Marlin Lever and can do the same or more out of a throated Handi, not what I call a "weaker sister". [/size]
#3 Using bullets of like construction and like sec. density, performance should be comparable with a savings of recoil, cost of said bullet and powder charge as well as flatter trajectory going to the 444 Marlin.

Just as in life, there is always someone "bigger, faster, stronger" out there to take down the reigning king. I own and shoot rifles in both cartridges and I prefer the 444 over the 45-70, just MY preference. Kinda boils down to the 440 vs the 454, or the 426 hemi vs the 427 rat motor, or how about the 389 GTO vs the 396 Chevelle. Their all good and I just wish I had em all. DP

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #39 on:** October 04, 2012, 03:51:52 AM »

I like everything you said dp. I only have a 444 Handi and need to shoot it more but like it so far and if you are right on your figures I'm happy

I may still get a 45-70 but have enough on my plate right now and gives me something to look forward to.

I sure miss my 68 GTO "Quicksilver" Too much power for a 17-18 year old kid

I think it would beat that 45 cal chunk of lead to the mile mark

abolt-fan · « **Reply #40 on:** October 04, 2012, 05:32:42 PM »

JP,
I started with 45-70s when Mississippi came out with the new primitive weapon regs. I have two and like them a lot. I didn't see any reason to have a 444, then I shot one. I liked it enough that I now have two 444s as well. I've found myself using it more than the 45-70.

My handloads for the 444 use Remington brass, WLR primers, H4198 powder and the Speer 270 gr. GDFP/Deep Curl bullet. I've shot hogs and deer with it and haven't recovered one yet. Nothing has went more than 30 yards after being hit. Love the gun, cartridge and load.

Ranger99 · « **Reply #41 on:** October 04, 2012, 05:48:38 PM »

gets kinda tough after the third
or fourth round out of a contender

wganz · « **Reply #42 on:** October 05, 2012, 12:13:00 AM »

Quote from: Gus McCrae on October 02, 2012, 07:14:10 AM

Deer aren't that hard to kill. .444 will do the job fine. I picked .45-70 because of nostalgia.

Shooting .45-70 at a mile? Some of y'all are a hoot. Anyone here done such a feat?

I did

!
Well, sort of, with some help of some 13B friends, at 3 miles but the caliber was 155mm.

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #43 on:** October 05, 2012, 02:53:13 AM »

Hold on to that 155, you will be able to use it in the primitive weapons season
IN a 100 years

In some countries it's a good Varmint round now

I wish we could use the 444 in Indiana.

BBF · « **Reply #44 on:** October 05, 2012, 04:10:34 AM »

Quote from: bigvarmnt on October 03, 2012, 03:02:27 PM

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But, I am curious about how much holdover is needed to throw that hunk of lead a mile.
Probably in those links, I'll have to look at later.

A picture of a 105 mm howitzer in action should give you an approx. angle of elevation for the 45-70 to shoot 1 mile.

Seriously, if I recall correctly the Sierra Ballistics software hasa feature to gives maximum range for most cartridges and I believe that was achieved by a barrel elevation of approx 23 deg which is much less than a howitzer

gcrank1 · « **Reply #45 on:** October 07, 2012, 04:30:50 AM »

Some 25yrs. ago, when I was a lot closer to my 'prime' than I am now, I had a Marlin levergun 444. That gun beat me up, even with its recoil pad. Loading it down to 44Mag didnt make much sense so I sold it. Neither my Springfield 'trapddor' nor H&R 45-70 beat me up, but if I got the recoil figures up to what those 444s were I think the steel buttplate on the SF would. Physics is physics, after all, but architecture plays a part.
Of course, this has nothing to do with 'will the projectile do the job'. Im pretty well convinced (go ahead, prove me wrong) that about any caliber placed in a kill zone will drop the game; placement is everything school of thought, but I like big holes that let out lots of wind and vital fluids even if they dont expand.
But thats just me.......

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #46 on:** October 07, 2012, 05:59:17 AM »

If anyone has the DVD "Shooter" check out the extra features section. It has a Marine? maybe sniper that trained Wahlberg on looking like he knew what he was doing. I think he explained that a shot at the distance they were talking about in the show would be coming almost straight down and body parts would be flying all over the place. Don't remember the caliber and distance but if the expert knew what he was talking about it was very interesting. If you get a chance to look at the extra features it was as good as the movie itself. He was able to shoot a course, Military I believe and said for an amateur he was hitting at 600 yds I believe. I'd like to shoot there as there was a perch overlooking a vast area of targets. Don't usually watch the features but am glad I stumbled across it

hoytcanon · « **Reply #47 on:** October 08, 2012, 06:03:29 AM »

Quote from: bigvarmnt on October 07, 2012, 05:59:17 AM

If anyone has the DVD "Shooter" check out the extra features section. It has a Marine? maybe sniper that trained Wahlberg on looking like he knew what he was doing. I think he explained that a shot at the distance they were talking about in the show would be coming almost straight down and body parts would be flying all over the place. Don't remember the caliber and distance but if the expert knew what he was talking about it was very interesting. If you get a chance to look at the extra features it was as good as the movie itself. He was able to shoot a course, Military I believe and said for an amateur he was hitting at 600 yds I believe. I'd like to shoot there as there was a perch overlooking a vast area of targets. Don't usually watch the features but am glad I stumbled across it

Thanks for ther "heads up"... I own the movie, so I will check it out.

jpshaw · « **Reply #48 on:** October 08, 2012, 07:10:34 AM »

Well I started this thread to see if my .444 would be fine out to 165 yds. I'm going to take that as a yes and leave some of you guys to shoot your deer at 1 mile with your .45-70s. I was simply stating that the newer twist rate (1/20) makes for an accurate combination with the 265 grain Hornady in .444 and I guess that was varified somewhere in here.

bucmeister · « **Reply #49 on:** October 08, 2012, 08:07:25 AM »

Does go to show how twisting and turning some subject threads can get.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #50 on:** October 08, 2012, 08:32:01 AM »

Quote from: jpshaw on October 08, 2012, 07:10:34 AM

I was simply stating that the newer twist rate (1/20) makes for an accurate combination with the 265 grain Hornady in .444...

Well JP, I think, as if anybody cares what I think, that you done good!

I have a 444 barrel and was thinking of the 265 grainers but had never thought about the barrel's twist!

Thanks to your thread I went and checked mine.

1 in 20 BTW.

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #51 on:** October 08, 2012, 11:10:34 AM »

Well I got some interesting info from your thread and am glad you started it. I've not shot any deer with mine at 165 yds yet so I'm not able to to just say yes or no to that point. Sounds like you got a fair deal on a gun/barrel you believe to be the proper twist rate and I'd say that is good. I've not shot any of the 265 Hornady Lever bullets so I'm not sure if they are what you will want for deer at 165 yds. You will probably have to try them and let us know. There was at least one discussion on the 444 a while back. If you try the search feature you may find it.

If you hit a deer with that bullet/barrel combination at 165 yds and you don't kill it, you may want to trade it in on a 45/70 as we know it will kill it very dead

quickdtoo · « **Reply #52 on:** October 08, 2012, 11:37:20 AM »

Here's my initial review of the 444 when it was re-released in 2007 including the factory test info using factory ammo including Hornady LE.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,118245.msg1098387522.html#msg1098387522

jpshaw · « **Reply #53 on:** October 09, 2012, 03:26:34 AM »

Quote from: bigvarmnt on October 08, 2012, 11:10:34 AM

If you hit a deer with that bullet/barrel combination at 165 yds and you don't kill it, you may want to trade it in on a 45/70 as we know it will kill it very dead

Highly doubt I will need 165 yards but that is the longest shot there is from my box stand measured with a range finder. That's to a tree line where it meets the haul road. I didn't pick the .444 as the best for that range, I simply needed a larger then .380 to qualify for Louisiana's primitive season (which they changed this year to .35). I have a 7mm/08 in Remington 700 (the 22" barrel not the 18.5" one) which I know will shoot further then that. If the .444 does good during the primitive season I might just keep it for the whole season. While it has the same length barrel as the bolt action it fits in a box stand a lot better with it's shorter overall length and doesn't hit the sides so much. I think I'm good to go.

keith44 · « **Reply #54 on:** October 09, 2012, 06:12:35 AM »

All kidding aside, the .444 should do very well. It is just a lengthened .44 Magnum, which is a very effective deer caliber out to 125 yards. The overall size and weight of the handi rifle make it very handy

in tight quarters.

Good luck

BBF · « **Reply #55 on:** October 09, 2012, 02:57:06 PM »

Yep, the LOA of a rifle does make a difference when you sit inside a tight box stand regardless of caliber.
I keep looking at a Handi vs a Husky Bolt action. $:-\$ $:-\$

Wagguy80 · « **Reply #56 on:** October 11, 2012, 04:56:01 AM »

2" high at 100, 1.5" low at 200. Can squeeze out to 300 no problem if you know your range (most do from their shooting houses) is what the .444 gives you.

Love it! Always the caliber battle. Also a note calibers don't kill people, people kill people. Being the military standard of the day during a period of war doesn't make it the best. I mean how many people are hunting with .223's? And that round has killed more people than all the .45-70's of the world combined. How about the 58 caliber musket? It's killed a field full or two. A lot of Yankee's met their end in front of a .32 caliber squirrel rifle. lol

I digress we're talking hunting here and let's see what are two calibers that will reliably kill a Grizzly bear? .444 marlin and .45-70
In fact either one will pretty much reliably kill any large game on the planet. It's like comparing apples and apples. Or two guys sitting at the clubhouse argueing about what is better the .30-06 or the .270 ones a little flatter (and I mean a little) one's a little bigger (and I mean a little) either kills deer dead.

Either the .444 or the .45-70 can probably kill a deer out to 600+ yards...providing you can hit the thing with that beautiful rainbow like trajectory.

Since I'm not a reloader everything points too the .444 being better with off the shelf ammo. But then again apples and apples. Whatever you shoot isn't going to be any less or more dead with either and any ammo.