What is proper lubrication??

[keith44]

Had some fun digging for an answer to this question, thought it might be fun to see everyone's opinion.


Obviously the proper lubrication for any semi-auto is the amount that keeps it running and minimizes wear of all bearing surfaces.  But what is that amount of lubrication?? and what type of lubrication?  Light grease/heavy oil, dry lubes (graphite and or moly), light oils, etc


What do you call properly lubricated?

[Savage]

I use a light synthetic grease. It stays put, lubricates well, and does not change viscosity in temperature extremes. For pocket guns I use a dry lube from Brownell's called "Action Magic". Oil and grease attract too much foreign matter in that application.
Savage

[DDZ]

I have been using Wilson Combat Ultima-Lube for a good many years. Now they make Ultima-Lube II. I think the product is some pretty good stuff. A little bit goes a long way.


http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Ultima-Lube-II-Universal-4-oz-Bottle/productinfo/578-4/

[keith44]

DDZ, the video at or near the bottom of the page your link goes to is the best demo I've seen outside of a class room. 

Great sounding product too, thanks for posting

[Mikey]

I use a light oil product called Bestline.  You can find it in someplaces in the south and it may be coming soon to Wal-Mart.  It is a new, and patented product.  Notice I said patented - that means its claims for lubricity can be proven and duplicated by the gov't.  I do not believe anything else out ther is patented. 
I used this product when it was being developed and continue to use it.  It works incredibly well.  You spray it on, and wipe it off.  A local Sheriff's Dept's competetive pistol team used it on their pistols with each pistol going through close to 15,000 round in 7 months without failure due to lubrication issues.  The Dept. also used it on six new M4s, going through 500 rnds per day for 10 consequtive days, and all without malfunction or failure due to lubrication.  They also found the rifles much easier to clean, and more quickly cleaned up. 
The first time I tested the product it was on a Marlin 30-30 with a microgroove barrel.  We put 200 rnds downrange, both commercial and handloaded jacketed and cast slugs, and the barrel came clean (I mean really clean, no leading or fouling)after just one swab down the tube. 
I use this product on all my pistols, revolvers and rifles.  This product is not harmful to either man or animal and is so dang green you can drink it - just stay close to a bathroom though.............
It smells good, too.

[SHOOTALL]

that sounds like a great product . but some AR owners won't know what to do as it seems some have installed a fill tube and drain plug to keep it wet  no that's not a funny looking mag. its an oil pan thank you !

[1911crazy]

I only use moly it works for me.

[Ranger99]

depends on what semi-auto you
refer to i would guess.


i use Ford motor co. teflon
grease for some things.
slide rails on my auto pistolas
get Kopper's all-weather weapons lube.
pivot pins on break-overs ( "crack-barrel"
if you're in loo-zee-anna) get anti-seize
or choke tube lube, as does choke tubes and
muzzle-loader nipples.
outer surfaces get eez-ox as does bores to
be stored. muzzleldr bores get wonderlube 1000

[Mikey]

Shootall:  as soon as this stuff is ready to hit the market full time I will give you a heads up. 

[Savage]

I'd appreciate a heads up as well. I'm always looking for something better.
Savage

[SHOOTALL]

Shootall:  as soon as this stuff is ready to hit the market full time I will give you a heads up.

Thanks that would be nice , I use CLP and Clenzoil alot . I am thinking of making RED OIL from syn motor oil , syn trans fluid and Hoppys #9 . QT of oil and trans fluid and 4 oz of Hoppys .

[Larry L]

Greases are a highly specialized use item, be careful what you use and what you use it on. Most automotive greases are high in sulfur. When oxidized with free free oxygen they can create acids. Obviously not good for any gun surface. Also, any Moly ( MOs2 ) is a sulfur and the same can happen should it be exposed to air and humidity. If using a grease, make sure it's for the gun industry or you can have issues. Might also want to know that the use of automotive motor oils have the same issues. A lot of guys at one time were using Mobil One for gun oil. That formulation that worked hasn't been made since Katrina when Mobil lost their PAO production. They never returned to it as it's too expensive to use in the automotive oils. It's pretty much no different than any motor oil out there except for the price. Most motor oils have at least 1% sulfur in the base and can cause issues. It's kinda like real estate where it's location, location, location. For any lubrication issue it's application, application, application.

[SHOOTALL]

The syn oil and trans fluid I was going to use is Amsoil

[Larry L]

Any ATF would be a poor choice. The Amsoil has about 650-700 ppms of Phosphorus in the mix. The TAN (Total Acid Number) is 2.9. The TAN is the amount in grams of potassium hydroxide that is needed to neutralize the acids in one gram of oil. What you would find ideal for the base is a fluid low in NAC (Naphthenic Acid Corrosion). Might consider an anhydrous lanolin based fluid instead. Naturally a water proofer and is used for a lubricant as well. This and possibly a virgin Polyalphaolefin based fluid would cover the extreme pressure side of the lube. Wouldn't take a lot of the PAO and you might find it in the lube for cordless nail guns....as I remember. Just a couple of ounces per quart liquid should be more than enough. I don't see the value of the Hoppes in the formulation though. It's a solvent and as such strips lubrication- not good. If you were looking from a decarbonizer viewpoint, I wouldn't suggest attempting to cover that many bases with a lube.

[Mikey]

Shootall, Savage:  gladly. 
Larry:  thanks for the clarification on some of those oils and lubricants.  There are definately lubricants to use and lubricants not to use. 
The Bestline products I have referred to undergo a commercial and patented bearing pressure test which clearly shows the Bestline product to be superior to and outperform all other lubricants.  I do not believe that any other lubricants have that distinction, or have received patents.  I think that if you read the labels on most currently available gun lubes it might say 'patent pending' but it has been stated like that since they first printed the label and there has been no change on them since.  The only lubricants that I know of that are patented to outperform the other products on the market are the Bestline products - the US Patent Office has awarded 7 patents to Bestline for its superior lubricant technology.  I have personally conducted the bearing test myself and have heard the bearing used in the tests start to 'scream' when the pressure gets to be too much for the other lubricants tested.  When they either add Bestline to the lube being used, or just use the Bestline product itself, you get nary a whimper from those bearings.  I have put my entire weight on the end of the torque wrench used in the testing and have brought the bearing surface pressure weight to over 4 times that of the normally used standard  pressure weight for those test procedures and have heard nary a 'squeal' from those bearings. 
One crankshaft maker relaced his cutting oil with Bestline products and has seen his cutting bits last for up to 10 crankshafts - previously he got only 3 from his cutting bits. 
When used in a engine oil application, the base product lubricates so well that engines without oil or coolant continue to run unimpeded.  The stuff is really incredible.  Remember the cash for clunkers program? Liquid silicate gel poured into the crankcase freezes up engines to death within 10 seconds.  Not so with the Bestline product - even with the silica gel in the crankcase, those engines treated with Bestline continued to run until they ran out of fuel.  Engines with the crankcase pulled and radiator pulled (no lubricant or coolant) that had been treated to Bestline continued to run, even when immersed in water.  When used in a firearms application, those firearms tested, as mentioned in a previous post, never failed due to lubrication issues.  Imagine what this stuff could do for the troops in the sand box............

[Larry L]

Sorry Mikey but under NO circumstances should you ever use this on any gun that you want and NEVER put this in any engine that you want. Bestline Engine Treatment and their other product lines are a chlorinated paraffin and as such are prone to making acids. In the heat environment of an engine it produces acids and the acid neutralizing components in the oil formulation are quickly over whelmed. Corrosion and any chlorinated paraffin go hand in hand. Kinda like fire and heat go together. Little hard to have a cold fire and it's hard not to have corrosion with any chlorinated paraffin. In a mill type environment where heat is not an issue and neither is any prolonged exposure is a totally different application.
http://www.google.com/patents/US4844825

[victorcharlie]

I was taught "if it slides grease it, if it rotates, oil it."

[Mikey]

Larry:  This is the patent language on Bestline Engine Treatment from the website you provided.  "It is known to use chlorinated paraffins as an extreme pressure lubricant additive in lubricating metals. Such additives are highly corrosive, however, and for that reason are not suitable for a number of uses, such as in the lubrication of internal combustion engines. The present invention overcomes the corrosive problems of the previous chlorinated paraffin additives. The present invention involves the mixing of a substantial portion of chlorinated paraffins with a smaller portion of an alkaline earth metal sulfonate, such as calcium or barium sulfonate, and preferably a base mineral oil and solvent. The resulting additive can be added to standard motor oil to improve its extreme pressure performance in internal combustion engines".
I believe this is the reason that (1) Bestline performs so well and outperforms all other lubricants and (2) why it has received 7 patents. 
There is a dvd available on teh Bestline website that demonstrates it performance capabilities.  I have been using the product for a couple of years and have never experienced any lubrication failures or corrosion problems.  The present invention overcomes the corrosive problems of the previous chlorinated paraffin additives (this language from the patent website)

[Larry L]

Mikey, before it was marketed as Bestline, the parent company called it XLR-8, same crap, different label. Saying that they've taken the corrosion out of a chlorinated paraffin is like saying you took the heat out of fire- it ain't happening. I've dealt with this stuff and other lubes on an R&D basis for over 20 years now. They can fool some of the people but I'm not one of them. It does not hold up to the advertising which is why a lot of the snake oils on the market today change their names with a lot of frequency- to keep fooling the unsuspecting and making millions.


In regard to the patents, I hope you understand you can patent most anything, even yer worn out shoes. All it takes is money, a form, and a gist of what the product is. Jeez, even the Pet Rock from decades ago was a patented item and all it was.....was a rock with a smiley face painted on it.

[keith44]

I was taught "if it slides grease it, if it rotates, oil it."

so was I, with a few exceptions.  U-joint needle bearings get greased. "ways" on a lathe get oiled

[ole 5 hole group]

 Larry L – what would be your recommendation for a good 1911 slide rail grease?

What I’ve found over the years is most shooters clean their firearms fairly frequently and few ever experience corrosion problems from use of the many gun greases on the market.  I and many others have used Mobil 1 red grease for years as a slide lube on 1911’s and never experienced anything more than normal wear issues.  I also like Breakfree CLP for about anything that moves but found I have to “refresh” it more often than when using a grease. 

A couple years ago I tried Jardine’s Extreme – and it worked fine but I didn’t find it any better than Mobil 1 synthetic grease except for the fact that I had to use Q-tips for the Mobil 1 while the other has a great grease tip applicator – Mobil 1 red synthetic grease is a lot cheaper and I can also grease my wheel bearings with it.

[Mikey]

Larry:  this information was received yesterday directly from Bestline:
"Mikey:  You will get a better explanation later.  quick response:  The patent cited is from 1989 and very old technology.  However, it is cited as "prior art" in our patent (a legal requirement), but it is not BestLine's patent and had nothing to do with BestLine.  BestLine's patent application (without looking at it, I'm close, but I might not be absolutely correct) was filed in 2005.   Two things - the patent from 1989, however, had a unique way of dealing with chlorinated paraffins so that they were stable.  That is part of the reason for the patent being granted.  However, it is all irrelevant, because BestLine products do not have any chlorinated paraffins.  BestLine relies primarily upon "Polyalphaolefins".  If the person that sent you the email had read the patent, he should have understood.  Side note: chlorinated paraffins are discussed in our patent because they do have certain properties.  The manner in which they are discussed provides more protection to our products.  If this person is not convinced, if you want, I can get some test results that will clearly demonstrate the stability of BestLine products".
Not the 'same crap' at all, Larry.  If you have dealt with these 'snake oils' on a r&d basis for over 20- years then possibly you should contact Bestline directly for both a sample for testing as well as the research dvd,  duplicate the tests they have put the product through,  and then duplicate the verification process used by the patent office
This should satisfy your concerns and clarify the errors in your statement about the current products produced by Bestline, which was not the same company that produced the 'crap' you referenced.  As for the notion of getting anything patented - that is pure bs.  None of the other lubricants tested or compared against Bestline are patented as doing what they claim to be able to do, or patented as performing as well they advertise, or performing as well as this lubricant. 
And, if one can get anything patented then I should have been able to get the very first bottlenecked pistol cartridge ever designed and made in the US patented, but not so. I also forget just how many patent applications are refused or turned down every year by the patent office but the extent of those rejections  certainly do not support your contention that anything can be patented.  And, if you were in r&d for 20 years you should know this and I certainly do not understand your statement about getting anything patented.
One personal word of caution here Larry - if you are not a research scientist or expert who intends to contest the patent award by the federal government, in a federal patent court, to seek to discredit this patent based on your assumptions, take care.  The company has already identified the errors in your statement and continued unqualified attempts to discredit the product could result in estensive personal liability. 
You're not dealing with the 'same old crap' here Larry.  This product is Bestline, and it works, and you are free to duplicate the tests, both commercial and company based, that these products have gone through.  Just let me know, on this forum, and I will ask to have samples sent to your location or company for testing.  I will also include information with the names of the commercial testing firms that tested these products prior to and in support to the patent application.  I will even send you my personal bottle of Bestline Gun Cleaner and Lubricant - you come up with a pistol and 15,000 rounds of ammo and test it out.

[DDZ]

I know there are hundreds of gun lubricants on the market. Some good some probably not so good. Some are used to lubricate other things besides guns, Some are made strictly for slide rails and other moving gun parts.
It kind of makes sense to me to stick to a lubricant that is recommended by a master pistol smith like Bill Wilson who started Wilson Combat, and builds some of the finest and tightest 1911's you can buy. I really doubt a lubricant that they recommend is not going to be one of the best you can buy for a semi auto.

[keith44]

 
I thought this would be a fairly straight forward thread with maybe two or three ideas on gun lubrication.  I guess I underestimated the wide reach of GBO 
So from what I can gather from all the responses, it seems that as long as there are no corrosion issues, and no functioning issues the gun is most likely properly lubricated.

[Mikey]

There are many choices available but the following should clarify the issue, and the concerns raised by Larry.  I think the rason people like Bill wilson do not use this product is because it is not yet on the shelves for them to use.  And yes, as the response below opines, you may drive a 64 Chevy but you need to think 2012:
John;
After   reading the note sent to Mike, the author jumped to conclusions without doing   his homework. I see these comments on the chat line by folks that have a very   narrow understanding of lubricants and all the while they are bitching about   Chlorinated Paraffin that are ignorant of the damage that 10% or more ethanol   in their gasoline is causing.  I can assure you that precious few have   written to their congressman to complain about the damage that ethanol is   causing to the engine, loss of power and lower fuel mileage.  The term   Chlorinated Paraffin represent a broad range of products from dry-cleaning   solvent to extremely viscus substances that you can swim in and even consume   without ill-effect.  It is like using the term oil.  Oil can range   from cooking oil to motor oils or some very veracious oils  that can be   extremely harmful to the fatty tissue below our skin.  Saying this, the   writer is correct if he is reference short carbon chain chemicals that fall   under CPs.  When he references the Cliff Sloan patent, he need to read   the whole patent.  This patents references the medium carbon chain   molecule which is very similar as what was and is used to coat the inside and   outside of your paper milk cartons other wise referenced a paraffin wax which   come from the longer chain CPs.  The Cliff Sloan patent sited was created   in 1982-1985 when filed.  Over a million dollars was spend in developing   an additive pack to stabilize the product under the most adverse conditions   and it worked exceptionally well.  One of the biggest customers for the   company was supplying the base product to major oil companies who on several   occasions tried to purchase the patent. The product was stabil well over   400degrees F.  and found it way into all types of industry prior to being   marketed as a retail automotive product. To my knowledge that with over $150   mil in sales, not one claim was paid out by the company or their insurance   carrier.  Not bad for a product that is supposed to be extremely   dangerous.  By the way it was approved by the folks at the EPA and what   do they know.

With   BestLine, we move the clock ahead 20 years and a great deal of research on the   future direction of motor oil and the auto industry.  Lengthy discussion   took place between the management of  BestLine and the EPA.  The   writing was on the wall in early 2003 when we were developing and testing the   product .  Automotive manufactures were being hammered by the EPA to   increase fuel mileage, reduce emission and increase oil change   intervals.  The oil companies answer was to reduce the viscosity of motor   oil which is now as low as it can go at it is now 0-W.  This reduction of   viscosity to the motor oil was to  decrease the fuel consumption just for   power the oil pump.  This results in premature wear in timing chains   along with other key and costly components.  Oil companies don't pay to   repair your car.  Group III and Group IV oils were being tinkered with by   the oil companies but they were not taken seriously by them due to the fact   that individuals and companies held the patents on production of the Group III   and Group IV synthetic oils.  Oil companies do not like paying   royalties.

BestLine had developed a unique   product based on blending and shearing a medium carbon chain Group III and a   long carbon Chain Group IV oil.  Both these product are safe to handle   and since they do not collect in organs are safe to swim in and ingest it that   was your desire.  Combined, the product are extremely stabil in both high   temperatures ( higher than the internal working of a combustion engine   including jet engines where it has been successfully tested) and the same at   extremely low temperatures.  Today, the talk in oil and automotive   industry is the use of these two key products to solve the efficiency and   longevity of the working components of the internal combustion engine.    Industry as a whole is scrambling to meet the demands of the EPA mileage,   completely unaware that we have the patent on what they are searching for and   the answer to their dilemma.   If Mike was to look at the pictures on the   website bestlinelubricants.com,   under testing, he would note that after   the Sequence V111, where normally the oil would be destroyed  and the   bearing blackened and a coating of heavy thick sludge on the oil plate, he   would see that none of that exists. Where-in-fact, it is clean and the oil was   as good as new after going through a destructive test.  We are the only   oil to achieve such test results and were granted a license by the American   Petroleum Institute to produce fully non-chemically derived synthetic motor   oil with the recognized energy saving credentials.  Not bad for something   that should not be put in your engine or gun.  I think that it is time   that the gentleman did a little research and got his fact straight.  By   the way, using BestLine products not only reduce friction, heat and wear   dramatically, the product more than doubles the life of the oil and is   recognized by the EPA as being environmentally friendly.  You friend may   drive a 64 Chevy, but he needs to get with the 2012 program.
 
References: Article published by the   Society of Triboligist and Lubricating Engineers
 

Wikipedia:
Motor oil or engine oil is an oil used for lubrication of various internal   combustion engines. The main function is to lubricate moving parts; it also   cleans, inhibits corrosion, improves sealing,   and cools the engine by   carrying heat away from moving parts.[1]
Motor   oils are derived from petroleum-based and   non-petroleum-synthesized chemical compounds. Motor oils today are mainly   blended by using base oils composed of hydrocarbons,   polyalphaolefins (PAO), and polyinternal olefins[2]   (PIO), thus organic compounds   consisting entirely of carbon and hydrogen

Synthetic Base   Stocks
Synthetic motor oils are man made oils from the following classes of lubricants:
Polyalphaolefin     (PAO) = American     Petroleum Institute (API) Group IV base oil     
Synthetic esters, etc. = API Group V     base oils (non-PAO synthetics, including diesters, polyolesters, alklylated     napthlenes, alkyklated benzenes, etc.)     
Hydrocracked/Hydroisomerized = API Group III base oils. Chevron, Shell,     and other petrochemical companies developed processes involving catalytic     conversion of feed stocks under pressure in the presence of hydrogen into     high-quality mineral lubricating oil. In 2005, production of GTL     (gas-to-liquid) Group III base stocks began, the best of which perform much     like polyalphaolefin. Group III-base stocks are widely permitted to be     marketed as synthetic motor oil
Ron Sloan
President
BestLine   International

[1911crazy]

My buddy who was in nam who went into the caves to hunt gooks with his 1911 lubed it with auto tranny fluid.   I seen him tear it down blind folded, clean and lube it and reassemble it.  He perfered the tranny fluid.